Hughes H-1 Pursuit Variant

[GTX]

Hi folks,

I recently read that Howard Hughes submitted a pursuit plane version of his H-1 racer design to the Army Air Corps and felt confident that after his demonstration of his trans-continental flight the army would be interested because this airplane was definitely faster than any military aircraft anywhere in the world - pursuit plane, bomber, or anything else. . . However the Army Air Corps did not accept this design.

Does anyone have anymore information on this proposal - specifically, how it differed from the racing original?

Regards,

Greg

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Hi Greg,
was finally reading back through the site and found your post.

In 'McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Since 1920: Volume 2" Rene Francillon paints a rather different picture of Hughes pursuit notions.

To start with he states that, unbeknown to Dick Palmer and the crew building the H-1, Hughes had set up another crew to build a fighter variation for entry in the Air Corps Pursuit Competition scheduled at Wright Field in August of 1935. Nothing came of it as the fighter, which had been given the martial sounding designation XP-2, could not be completed in time for the competition. Evidently there was an incident where Hughes purposely misrepresented a statement made by the Air Corps project officer, this began the friction between Hughes and the Air Corps that was to reach a critical point with the D-2/XF-11 debacle.

The next chapter in the sage was that following his trans-continental record flight in the H-1B, Hughes ignored an informal request by the Air Corps to bring the aircraft to Wright Field and discuss a possible pursuit development. Instead Hughes had the aircraft placed in storage.

The final act was that after a little less than three years of storage the aircraft was 'transferred to the Timm Aircraft Company in a $100,000 dollar paper transaction..in 1940 a desultory effort was made to modify the aircraft into an all-metal fighter. Nothing came of the project and that was the end of the H-1 as fighter story.

Francillon does not mention what the modification would have entailed...and its possible that nobody left alive knows what was intended or actually done.

However, going from the fact that it was intended for the 1935 Pursuit competition and based on the entries from Seversky(XP-1), Curtiss(Hawk 75B) and Vought V-141(Northrop N3)...I'd say minimal change in appearance and a pair of Browning machine guns, one .30 and one .50, firing through the propeller. May do that with the 'long-wing' version in the CMR twin-kit.

Cheers, Jon

 

[Stargazer]

However, going from the fact that it was intended for the 1935 Pursuit competition and based on the entries from Seversky(XP-1), Curtiss(Hawk 75B) and Vought V-141(Northrop N3)...

The Vought V-141 was the Model 3A, NOT the N-3. It was developed by the old Northrop company, which became the El Segundo Division of Douglas.

The "N-" designs are later and correspond to the newly formed Northrop Company from 1939 or about:

- N-1M a flying-wing prototype
- N-2B the XP-56 BLACK BULLET pusher fighter
- N-3PB a single float aircraft for export
etc.

 

[sienar]

Some nice bits of info here, including this side view ;D

http://afhistoricalfoundation.org/members/APH_archive_files/2007_fall.pdf

 

[hesham]

Some nice bits of info here, including this side view ;D

http://afhistoricalfoundation.org/members/APH_archive_files/2007_fall.pdf

Nice find Sienar.

 

[Steve Pace]

Hughes Model XP-2 instead of pursuit version of D-2 sounds so much better. -SP

 

[Stargazer]

Hughes Model XP-2 instead of pursuit version of D-2 sounds so much better. -SP

What is the D-2 doing here?? That was the large twin-engine attack, a forerunner of the XR-11!!
The H-1 is what it was, as the topic's title implies.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Hughes Model XP-2 instead of pursuit version of D-2 sounds so much better. -SP

What is the D-2 doing here?? That was the large twin-engine attack, a forerunner of the XR-11!!
The H-1 is what it was, as the topic's title implies.

Stephane, I believe Steve's joking point was that an H-1 based aircraft would have been a more sensible project
than any of the proposed pursuit/fighter variations of the basic D-2 design, as mentioned in Part 2:

http://afhistoricalfoundation.org/members/APH_archive_files/2008_spring.pdf

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Lol, look at Stephane getting all worked up!

"Nòn! Nòn! Nòn!"

 

[sienar]

Did anyone here save those two pdf links posted above?

That website is now dead and I can't seem to find the pdfs on any of my hard drives.

 

[jcf]

The website has changed to www.afhistory.org

Archives page: http://www.afhistory.org/members/air-power-history-archives/

Here are the current links to the journals in question:

http://www.afhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2007_fall.pdf

http://www.afhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2008_spring.pdf

 

[lark]

Interesting , thanks very much !

 

[hesham]

Amazing find Jcf.

 

[Stargazer]

The final act was that after a little less than three years of storage the aircraft was 'transferred to the Timm Aircraft Company in a $100,000 dollar paper transaction..in 1940 a desultory effort was made to modify the aircraft into an all-metal fighter. Nothing came of the project and that was the end of the H-1 as fighter story.

Why Timm Aircraft, of all companies? This is where the plot thickens...

An item in the 1940 edition of The New International Year Book (describing the state of the industry in 1939) suggested that "The Timm Aircraft Corp. will build a Howard Hughes pursuit racer from sprucewood impregnated with phenolic resin." This of course never happened. What I do not understand in joncarrfarrelly's post is whether the idea to further modify the H-1 into an all-metal fighter originated with Timm, which would seem logical given the date, since Timm already owned the aircraft by then.

 

[Avimimus]

Did anyone here save those two pdf links posted above?

That website is now dead and I can't seem to find the pdfs on any of my hard drives.

This is now the case again!

I think this is it though:

https://www.afhistory.org/airpowerhistory/Air_Power_History_2007_fall.pdf

 

[hesham]

I think this one was D-1,as I guess.

 

[hesham]

I think this one was D-1,as I guess.

 

[Apophenia]

I think this one was D-1,as I guess.

Is your "this one" speculation on the internal designation related to the H-1 submission to Specification X603 (ie the Hughes XP–2) or on Timm's proposed wooden derivation?

 

[hesham]

Is your "this one" speculation on the internal designation related to the H-1 submission to Specification X603 (ie the Hughes XP–2) or on Timm's proposed wooden derivation?

That's about the derivative proposal,they couldn't refer to it twice H-1,but we find in the D series,D-2,D-3,
D-4 & D-5,and no trace to D-1,so this is my suggesting.

 

[Apophenia]

That's about the derivative proposal,they couldn't refer to it twice H-1,but we find in the D series,D-2,D-3,
D-4 & D-5,and no trace to D-1,so this is my suggesting.

So you are suggesting that the XP-2 may have also been designated 'D-1'?

 

[hesham]

So you are suggesting that the XP-2 may have also been designated 'D-1'?

Yes.

 

[Aeroweanie]

Does anyone have a picture of Dick Palmer?

 

[PabloSniper]

It would have been a great fighter at the beginning of the war.

 

[sienar]

The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1 and it didn't do so hot, though pilots liked its flying characteristics.

 

[PabloSniper]

The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1 and it didn't do so hot, though pilots liked its flying characteristics.

The P-66 reminds me of a straight-winged Corsair.

 

[Stargazer]

The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1

Where did you get that notion?

 

[Antonio]

Where did you get that notion?

Both designed by Richard Palmer

 

[PabloSniper]

Where did you get that notion?

With an image I answer your question.

 

[Stargazer]

With an image I answer your question.

Except you didn't! I wasn't questioning the resemblance between the P-66 and the Corsair (which is of course very obvious to me), but the assertion that "The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1".

 

[PabloSniper]

The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1 and it didn't do so hot, though pilots liked its flying characteristics.

Except you didn't! I wasn't questioning the resemblance between the P-66 and the Corsair (which is of course very obvious to me), but the assertion that "The P-66 was pretty much a fighter version of the H-1".

It wasn't me who said that.

 

[Stargazer]

It wasn't me who said that.

No, but what you did is think I was questioning something which I wasn't!

 

[PabloSniper]

Well, but getting back to the topic, I think this report can add a little information about the H-1.



I confess I was impressed that he could reach 600 miles in the dive.

 

[sienar]

1 3/8 inch thick skin

 

[Foo Fighter]

600 miles in a dive? Pretty far out of the atmosphere for a dive.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Both designed by Richard Palmer

P-66 for modellers

 

[Justo Miranda]

H-1 Inspiration???

Polikarpov I-17 (September 1934)

derived racer

 

[PabloSniper]

600 miles in a dive? Pretty far out of the atmosphere for a dive.

As I thought this speed was too high for a 1935 plane. I went to research the other 1935 designs and found this.

X17Y | This Day in Aviation

A Hawk 75 could dive to 575 miles.
And since the H-1 was a more refined design than the P-36, I think it would actually be possible.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The Bristol 133 promised high diving speed.

 

[PabloSniper]

The Bristol 133 promised high diving speed.

An unfair comparison, don't you think?
The P-36 did in fact get 575 miles in the dive, and I forwarded it to the source.
The H-1 was aerodynamically much more advanced than a P-36.
Then you compare it to this duck with wings.

 

[publiusr]

On the H-1/Zero myth

Did Howard Hughes Design Japan's Zero Fighter?

The truth behind the rumor that Howard Hughes designed the Zero fighter plane used by Japan in World War II.

www.historynet.com