Horizon AAW concepts

[JAZZ]

Early UK concept and French concept.

 

[TinWing]

Early UK concept and French concept.

What is the source for the image "EURO- Horizon early french concept_a1.jpg?"

JFS was never published in color in this era?

 

[flateric]

Isn't it already Italy/French projectt?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/horizon.htm

 

[JAZZ]

What is the source for the image "EURO- Horizon early french concept_a1.jpg?"

JFS was never published in color in this era?

Drawing comes from JFS and it has had a colour gradient layered on it. I find that useful as it is easier to identify as thumbnails. This is a poor photo of a model of it...do not have a reference for this.

 

[TinWing]

Isn't it already Italy/French projectt?

The image "jni021014_3p.gif" depicts an early Italian configuration of the FREMM antisubmarine/antisurface frigate program.

 

[JAZZ]

drawing and better picture of early french design...for Mconrads

 

[MConrads]

Thanks a lot jazz.

Regards

 

[RP1]

As shown in an unclassified lecture, a late CNGF design, but not the final (note the reversed mast arrangement, split VLS, SeaStreak ILMS and italian 127mm).

RP1

[EDIT: Updated image]

 

[TinWing]

As shown in an unclassified lecture, a late CNGF design, but not the final (note the reversed mast arrangement, split VLS, SeaStreak ILMS and italian 127mm).

RP1

The split VLS and mast arrangement are entirely unique. I do think that there are other drawings that might depict the 24 round SeaSteak launcher, but I thought that this Starstreak based project was dead by 1996 or 1997?

Do you have the original drawing from the lecture?

 

[RP1]

The split VLS and mast arrangement are entirely unique.

I have seen other drawings of the conventional arrangement with split VLS. The naval-technology website used to have a number of images of different versions of the design, with many minor changes to the superstructure design and VLS arrangement.

It is very difficult to place exactly when in the project each of the designs (including this one) originated, unless they are explitly dated. The original drawing uses the modern SAMPSON, but with exernal access rails (which I need to add on to this image), but the much smaller original design for the LRR. That doesn't seem to have changed untill right before the UK left the project. I can think of 9 different designs without much effort.

I thought that this Starstreak based project was dead by 1996 or 1997?

IIRC it got a mention in the big Friedman weapons book in about 2000 or so, so it was dragged out for a bit longer. SeaStreak is shown on several drawings and artists impressions.

Do you have the original drawing from the lecture?

It shows the internal arrangements, so I can't post it I'm afraid (such reproduction is not encouraged). Unlike an Italian firm who recently used the full internal profile of the FREMM-IT on an advert, before replacing it with the worst. photoshop. ever.

RP1

 

[TinWing]

I have seen other drawings of the conventional arrangement with split VLS. The naval-technology website used to have a number of images of different versions of the design, with many minor changes to the superstructure design and VLS arrangement.

Hmm.....I missed that one. I've been watching www.naval-technology.com since 1996, but I don't remember that.

It shows the internal arrangements, so I can't post it I'm afraid (such reproduction is not encouraged). Unlike an Italian firm who recently used the full internal profile of the FREMM-IT on an advert, before replacing it with the worst. photoshop. ever.

Is this this what you are refering to?

 

[RP1]

Is this this what you are refering to?

That's the one. It caused a raised eyebrow at the time, and even more when it was replaced.

RP1

 

[TinWing]

As shown in an unclassified lecture, a late CNGF design, but not the final (note the reversed mast arrangement, split VLS, SeaStreak ILMS and italian 127mm).

RP1

[EDIT: Updated image]

The split VLS concept seems to have arisen more than once, as the below drawing would seem to indicate. My guess is that the below drawing is from around 1993-1994, sometime after the NRF-90 was cancelled and the Horizon class was fully defined. Notice the LAMS designation for the missiles, which predates PAAMS, and the very odd VLS arrangement of 20 cells aft and 40 cells forward.

 

[RP1]

That is not an official design. It is the UK part of a joint comparative exercise in UK & US design carried out in the early 1990s. Allthough indicative of typical national designs, it was not meant to represent the actual design. A paper was presented to SNAME and RINA. The latter reference is:

Ferreiro, L & Stonehouse, M, "A Comparative Study of US and UK Frigate Design", Trans. RINA Vol 136, 1994.

Strongly recommend it for those interested in warship design.

RP1

 

[RP1]

I would note that the US design was similar but without a split VLS, and with a host of design differences internally.

Regarding the French CNGF proposal with a single large superstructure block shown above. I understand that this was actually an unsolicited private proposal using a proprietary deep-vee hullform. It appears on some old issues of Navy International, with a little information. When I get round to ShipBucketing the thing I will post what information I can find.

RP1

 

[TinWing]

It looks as if the port hangar side VLS concept has been revived for a FREMM proposal to Greece. I do have to wonder why they always seem to put the VLS on the port side of the hangar?

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=107575

My thank to enrr for the link.

 

[Racer]

Because of easier reloading in ports?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

To cut down on length. It’s a terrible idea as the transverse weight balance will be a nightmare to manage as the helicopter goes in and out of the hangar and missiles are loaded and expended. Further having such a high concentration of weight in the form of 24 VLS cells not only high above the metacentre but also out on the side like this will be terrible for the ship’s stability.

But obviously the Hellenic requirement is for a ship with 56 VLS cells and without lengthening the hull of the FREMM or sacrificing another length consumer (like the gun, flight deck, etc) they have to slap on the portside VLS.

 

[TomS]

The launchers installed alongside the hangar are Sylver 35, the shortest and lightest version of this launcher. It is sized for the ASTER 15 self-defense SAM --a full load of 24 ASTER 15 would weigh about 7 tonnes, less than one medium helicopter.

Ships with dual helicopter hangars routinely deal with the weight and balance issues of taking one helo out of the hangar, launching it, and recovering it, whether the other hangar is full or empty. I doubt that this would be a serious problem in a ship with one hangar and VLS.

 

[starviking]

Ships with dual helicopter hangars routinely deal with the weight and balance issues of taking one helo out of the hangar, launching it, and recovering it, whether the other hangar is full or empty. I doubt that this would be a serious problem in a ship with one hangar and VLS.

Does anyone know the procedure on two-helicopter ships? It occurs to me that once you've manoeuvred the flight copter out of the hangar you could stow the other one on the centreline, dealing with any balance problem that way.

Starviking

 

[TomS]

Nope, they don't move the other helo around, assuming it is even carried. In many ship the two hangars are physically separated, making it impossible. The most extreme example would be the USN's Flight IIA Arleigh Burkes, where there's a large vertical launcher between the two hangars, but it's also true in the OH Perry class, which has a walkway between the hangars. Plus, ships with space for two helicopters often sail with only one.

I think that Abraham is overstating the impact of moving ten tons or so on a ship that masses several thousand tons. The impact of such a weight shift is easily accounted for in the design margins of the ship and is hardly noticeable in practice.

 

[RP1]

I get just under 1.5 degrees of heel on a 3800te frigate hullform for a 15te mass at 6m from the centreline - which would have the helicopter right at the deck edge. If the CO is really that worried about his coffee not being level there are usually some small trim and heel compensation tanks.

RP1

 

[starviking]

Cheers for the info TomS & RP1

 

[Grey Havoc]

Mk 8 4.5-inch Naval Gun Mod 2:

Mod 2. This was a fall-back option offered by VSEL
for the now-defunct Common New Generation Frigate
(CNGF) Project Horizon. The Mod 2 was based on the
Mod 1 but dispensed with the feed ring, and it
introduced a new hoist assembly. This was intended to
allow the loading arm to receive ammunition directly
from the magazine. A planned refurbishing program to
modernize the removed Mod 0 guns to a Mod 2
standard for use on other ships was canceled.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=786

 

[Hood]

Some early configurations of the CNGF/Horizon dating from 1995:
An early outline sketch design
The Indicative Design
A Model of the Indicative Design

 

[Grey Havoc]

Some more background on the program:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmdfence/544/544w04.htm

https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=888

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Project Horizon Risk Management

Project Horizon Risk Management. December 1994. C. J. MAUGHAN, B.Sc., C.ENG., M.I.MECH.E

library.imarest.org

A New Type of Collaboration - The Horizon Programme

A New Type of Collaboration - The Horizon Programme. June 1995. ALBERTO GAUSOLINO; JOHN VAN GRIETHUYSEN; PHILIPPE JULIOT.

library.imarest.org

The Horizon Programme - Origins, Organization and Prospects

The Horizon Programme - Origins, Organization and Prospects. June 1995. HERVÉ GUILLOU.

library.imarest.org

Project Horizon - Design Management in a Multinational Environment

Project Horizon - Design Management in a Multinational Environment. June 1996. DR. W. J. VAN GRIETHUYSEN, M.R.I.N.A., R.C.N.C.; P. JULIOT (IPA) (Corps de I'Armement).

library.imarest.org

Project Horizon Integrated Logistic Support Issues and Challenges

Project Horizon Integrated Logistic Support Issues and Challenges. December 1998. AUTHOR UNKNOWN.

library.imarest.org