Hispano-Suiza gun projects

blockhaj

blockhaj

Swedish "want to be" aviation specialist
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Thought we could start a thread on Hispano-Suiza gun projects.

Some examples (please fill in):
  • HS.7 (20x110)
  • HS.9 (20x110)
  • HS.404 (20x110)
  • HS.406 (23x122)
  • HS.407 (23x122)
  • HS.408 (25 mm caliber)
  • HS.410 (30 mm caliber)
  • HS.603 (30x158)
  • HS.604 (30x158)
  • HS.606/30 (30x158)
  • HS.606/37 (37x158B)
  • HS.804 (20x110)
  • HS.808 (7.5x55) - LMG
  • HS.820 (20x139)
  • HS.825 C (30x136) - L/70, cradle I
  • HS.825 D (30x136) - L/53, cradle I
  • HS.825 E (30x136) - L/53, cradle II
  • HS.825 F (30x136) - L/70, cradle II
  • HS.827 B (20x139)
  • HS.827-C (23x133)
  • HS.830 (30x170)
  • HS.831 (30x170)
  • HS.834 (34x239)
  • HS.836 (30х138)
  • HS.837 (30х138)
  • HS.840 (40x239)
 
Last edited:
The 606 is dual caliber, either 30x158 or 37x158B. The 30mm calibers are not belted, they are just 30x158.

D'assault book claims it requires a simple tube change to change caliber but the feed tray and topcover are both also marked 30 on this example so I assume they would swap as well. Do note the shell next to it is not for the gun.

(Almost forgot - this is an "A" model. I have no idea what changed.)

hisp60630.jpg
 
martellus said:
The 606 is dual caliber, either 30x158 or 37x158B. The 30mm calibers are not belted, they are just 30x158.

D'assault book claims it requires a simple tube change to change caliber but the feed tray and topcover are both also marked 30 on this example so I assume they would swap as well. Do note the shell next to it is not for the gun.

(Almost forgot - this is an "A" model. I have no idea what changed.)

View attachment 727631
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How did u manage to find a 606?
 
I am not sure on the AP ammunition. That picture and the case drawing you posted is the only documentation of any type I have seen, and the only reference of any AP projectile. That is not to say it doesn't exist, as I have very found very little documentation.

As mentioned "Les chasseurs Dassault_ Ouragans, Mystères, et Super Mystères " has a little bit of information not listed elsewhere, but doesn't elaborate further. It does say the weapon was under the 7CG program (The DEFA 30mm was 3CG for reference). I have tried to find information under that designation but no luck. Volume III of "The Machine Gun" by Colonel Chinn has a couple pictures of the base model 606, including the only links I have ever seen, but it is that mid century sort of "drawn over picture" artstyle, so its not too detailed.

I found this one by chance, but it is missing the barrel and other caliber pieces, likely separated when moving between museums or collections. There is another I located in the US, off display in a collection storage that has the cleaning kit barrels etc, and I plan to visit and document it sometime this year. They said they don't have any documentation either, but also have a large backlog of documents yet to be cataloged.

Tony William's book has a smidge more information than those sources, but I am not sure where he got it from. I don't doubt it, I just don't know the source. I haven't seen the 604 mentioned anywhere else in particular. D'assault has the only claims I have seen regarding fire rate, projectile weight, muzzle velocity, etc.

I believe he may have some other models mentioned that are not in your list but I would have to take some time to check.
 
Hi,

blockhaj said:
Stielgranate is the German term. The idea was trialed by most major arms nations, notably Hungary for their 40/60 Bofors guns.
Click to expand...

Stielgranate is a German term, but I would say as far as the shaped-charge anti-tank projectile was concerned, this was a camouflage term chosen to make it appear an technologically "uninteresting" shafted hand grenade.

("Shaft" is a more accurate translation than "stick", as the German "Stiel" is also used for axe shafts. I guess "haft" would work too, not sure what the difference between the two English terms is! :) There's some similarity between the German "Stiel" and the English "stalk", but Kluge's etymological dictionary points out that the German "Stiel" is derived from the Latin "stilus" instead.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi again,

HoHun said:
Stielgranate is a German term, but I would say as far as the shaped-charge anti-tank projectile was concerned, this was a camouflage term chosen to make it appear an technologically "uninteresting" shafted hand grenade.
Click to expand...

On further thought, maybe there's actually a convergence of technical terms, considering that the first modern rifle grenade type was considered a "rod grenade" in English, which could indeed be translated as "Stielgranate".

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
HoHun said:
... I guess "haft" would work too, not sure what the difference between the two English terms is!...
Click to expand...

Henning,

In common English usage, an axe has a 'handle' rather than a 'shaft'. Regarding tools and weapons, 'shaft' tends to describe longer items - eg: the shaft of a spear.

Technically, 'haft' can be used for the handle of an axe ... but it rarely is. More commonly, 'haft' will be applied to the handle of a knife. Today, 'haft' is much more likely to be used as a verb (perhaps because 'shafted' has taken on a colloquial meaning?).
 
Volume 5 of Colonel Chinn's "The Machine Gun" details more on some of the special 800 series guns.
HS names.png
Very interesting cannons that seem to have been a significant upgrade over the classic Hispano design. (Scan from Internet Archive)

I was looking on airwar.ru recently (using google translate) and skimming through their Hispano article I noticed a passage on the 600 series guns:

By the mid-1950s, it became clear that the reserve for developing the combined gas-operated automatics with a semi-free breech had reached its peak. And Hispano Suiza initiated the development of a new generation of automatic cannons, based on an automatics system based on a short barrel recoil and a gas bleed that unlocked the cannon breech.

The development of the 600 series aircraft cannons with automatics based on a combination of a short barrel recoil with gas venting in the French branch of the company served as an impetus for the development of a new scheme for the company. Experimental aircraft cannons - 30 mm HS-603 and HS-604 for the 30x158B cartridge and the HS-606 scaled up to 37 mm for the 37x158B cartridge were tested in 1951, remaining in prototype form.​
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I don't trust this passage implicitly, for example they go on to say the 600 guns remained in prototype in 1951, and in 1952 development work started on the 827, 837 etc. But the 606A I posted above is dated 1953, so there is something unexplained there.
It also conflicts with the D'assault book which mentions trials of those guns for aircraft (which it lost to the DEFA 30mm), as opposed to just experimental developments.

However, airwar does mention how the guns are short recoil with some mysterious "gas bleed" unlocking. I myself had previously come to this conclusion this by having a hands on examination of the 606A I posted. I have never seen this mentioned in any documentation of these guns, so I some other source has to be out there. I do not have access to Janes nor was I able to find the other source listed however.
 
martellus said:
However, airwar does mention how the guns are short recoil with some mysterious "gas bleed" unlocking. I myself had previously come to this conclusion this by having a hands on examination of the 606A I posted. I have never seen this mentioned in any documentation of these guns, so I some other source has to be out there. I do not have access to Janes nor was I able to find the other source listed however.
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The 825 lost in Sweden to the ADEN due to gas bleed which got so concentrated it ignited every few shots.
 
The 825 is mentioned as having powder issues but haven't heard about any of the other guns.
I would describe it as direct impingement from what I have seen on the 606. The gas port is quite close to the breech, and seems adjustable, but without any barrel its unknown if they really used a gas port that close or had some routing of the gas from further down the barrel, similar to the revised piston design on the 820 and 831.
 

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