Hawker P.1103 : F.155T contender

[blackkite]

Hi!
Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_P.1103
"The submission by Hawker Siddeley a design by the legendary designer Sir Sydney Camm was effectively a supersonic development of his successful Hawker Hunter design, using a single engine - a 25,000 lb development of the de Havilland Gyron breathing through an under-chin air intake.
Two detachable rocket boosters, to give a 3.7 minute boost, were carried in mid-wing nacelles."
Russian site.
http://warfiles.ru/show-72196-proekt-istrebitelya-perehvatchika-hawker-p1103.html
Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,23478.0.html

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

 

[Arjen]

That image is from Dan Sharp's RAF Secret Jets of Cold War Britain, pages 56-57.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A lot of low quality posts from blackkite in this topic and elsewhere. Temporary ban placed.

Reposting low quality pics reposted in Russian forums, often taken from here, bad scans, and links to Wikipedia, are not useful. Anyone wishing to know more about P.1103 should buy my book, Dan's book, and Tony Buttler's book. Not necessarily in that order.

 

[starviking]

A lot of low quality posts from blackkite in this topic and elsewhere. Temporary ban placed.

Reposting low quality pics reposted in Russian forums, often taken from here, bad scans, and links to Wikipedia, are not useful. Anyone wishing to know more about P.1103 should buy my book, Dan's book, and Tony Buttler's book. Not necessarily in that order.

Whilst I understand your decision, and have gently called Blackkite out on his posting recently, I hope the ban will be short.

I live in Japan like he does, and the general availability of the products in question is very poor. Whilst the books mentioned stick in my head, I am a native English-speaker, he is not.

His actions are not egregious, when the sources are pointed out to him, he attributes (sadly, the Russian forums do not). He even bought one of Chris’ books when the source of his image was pointed out to him.

Finally, it can be really hard to pick up English indirect communication if you’re not a native speaker - more so if you’re Japanese. Blackkite Was getting indirect messages about his postings, like “nice picture, where did it come from?”. That would be a yellow card to a native speaker - befuddling to many non-native speakers.

 

[CJGibson]

Black Kite has previously posted valuable info, especially on Japanese subjects. I wonder what prompted Black Kite to post this recent subject matter as it has been somewhat out of character.

Chris

 

[Arjen]

If you have not read Dan Sharp's RAF Secret Jets of Cold War Britain, it could be difficult to trace it as the image's source. In this case, I would suggest lenience. I appreciate people mentioning their sources, but Pinterest can be a bit of a dead end.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In general, Pinterest and Wikipedia should not appear as sources. Not everything posted on the internet deserves to be posted here. Pictures posted should be new to the topic or better quality copies than what is already posted. Information posted should add to what is known about a design.

I appreciate that not everyone has access to the best sources, but that doesn't mean we should post poor quality scanned drawings from, say, Tony Buttler's BSP books into every topic.

 

[Nick Sumner]

Anyone wishing to know more about P.1103 should buy my book, Dan's book, and Tony Buttler's book. Not necessarily in that order.

Buy my book too! It's got nothing to do with the P.1103 but I need the money.

No, seriously; I have Overscan and Tony's books and they are excellent. Dan's is on my birthday list.

 

[blackkite]

I apologize to anyone who is uncomfortable with my post.
I just want to explore the truth. I have used any means deemed effective for that. I did some obvious copyright infringement, but illegal behavior is bad. The information on the Russian site was valuable to me. It is wasteful that it is not available to western humans, but I stop posting using Russian sites. WIKIPEDIA information is very valuable, but sometimes wrong. I think that reflecting the information and opinions of many people will improve the quality of WIKIPEDIA's information, but I will stop quoting because it is the intention of the forum. I also stop quoting Pinterest.

 

[blackkite]

Black Kite has previously posted valuable info, especially on Japanese subjects. I wonder what prompted Black Kite to post this recent subject matter as it has been somewhat out of character.

Chris

I like every secret projects very much same as all SPF's member.I used to post Russian, American, German, Italian, French, Canadian secret pojects.

 

[blackkite]

Thank you very much for defending me starviking-san!!

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
https://www.key.aero/article/mothballed-not-cancelled

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I think that's my photo of the P.1103 brochure I sent to Tony.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Lets have some interesting pics from my book instead





. These three photos were filed as P.1103 in the Hawker negatives at the RAF Museum.

Ralph Hooper didn't recognise the design and found several features questionable. However it seems to have a Gyron and two rocket engines, so it seems plausibly a P.1103 related design.

Ralph's suggestion was maybe it was a deliberate misinformation model to be 'accidentally' left on view to deceive a competitor.

@Jemiba did a 3D reconstruction to understand the geometry and came up with this 3 view drawing.



Any thoughts welcome!

 

[Hood]

Well it looks convincing for a Hawker design, but it does seem draggy around the rear end. The thermal and vibration loads on the tailplanes wouldn't be healthy either.
Of course you could muse, they flipped the intake the other way and begat P.1121...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Well, there was a brief dorsal intake study for P.1121. It is a Hawker model photographed at Kingston, that much is clear.

 

[pathology_doc]

Ralph's suggestion was maybe it was a deliberate misinformation model to be 'accidentally' left on view to deceive a competitor.

I can see it now:

Junior designer with a brief to create a wild goose chase goes home, greets child at door. "Tommy, I want you to draw me a two-man fighter with one GREAT BIG jet engine and two rockets." And so this is hatched, straight from the mind of a ten-year-old who's read far too much Dan Dare, knows nothing about aerodynamics and cares less, but Oh God, if it flies as good as it looks, it will be beautiful.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1374335743024361474

View: https://twitter.com/tempest_books/status/1374335743024361474