Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) UK-Japan-Italy

[timmymagic]

Range is always vital, Typhoons relied on tanker support when operating from Cyprus to strike targets in Iraq. Tankers are relatively rare assets, if you don't need to rely on them it frees them for other aircraft to use.
I'm seeing the GCAP becoming a proper Tornado replacement (with perhaps longer legs).

RAF also remembers Libya in 2011 with Tornado flying from Marham...

 

[Kota]

The rather obvious retort is that an ADIZ does not reflect what we would want to do in a shooting war...

The point is you are restricting Japan's operational area to the extent of their ADIZ by only using things like Ryukyu islands as distance markers in your comparisons. If we are talking about a shooting war Japan would likely need to operate as far down as the SCS to protect shipping lanes or deep strikes on Chinese missile silos or Bomber divisions in Lanzhou or Guangzhou. Even flying from Coningsby to the Black Sea or Moscow don't match those distances. Which also again is ignoring that the distance between Nyutabaru and Chitose is as big as the entire ADIZ of the UK meaning the variance in travel distances will be massive depending on where the fighters come from.

 

[timmymagic]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1816781704515698915

View: https://twitter.com/JonA2i/status/1816781704515698915

 

[WatcherZero]

Hes revised his estimate to 65ft (19.8m) which is still almost a meter longer than an F-22. Not sure I have much confidence in it, someone else in the thread is suggesting 19.0m based on canopy scaling to the J-20 but we have seen the Tempest mock-ups actually have unusually large cockpits with massive canopy panes.

 

[snne]

Hes revised his estimate to 65ft (19.8m) which is still almost a meter longer than an F-22. Not sure I have much confidence in it, someone else in the thread is suggesting 19.0m based on canopy scaling to the J-20 but we have seen the Tempest mock-ups actually have unusually large cockpits with massive canopy panes.

I expected the GCAP to be 1-2 meters longer than Kaan but in fact Kaan is 0.4 meters longer than the GCAP! (acc. to @paralay) This roughly means that the MTOW might not be as much as we've thought.

I reckon the American and Chinese 6th gens are going to be longer and heavier than that.

 

[timmymagic]

Hes revised his estimate to 65ft (19.8m) which is still almost a meter longer than an F-22. Not sure I have much confidence in it, someone else in the thread is suggesting 19.0m based on canopy scaling to the J-20 but we have seen the Tempest mock-ups actually have unusually large cockpits with massive canopy panes.

Yes he's back away from it, 10ft shorter than an F-111

 

[Hood]

It's a plastic model. Pointless trying to speculate over an exhibition display.
1:1 scale means nothing if you don't know what it's scaled against and BAE already bragged that they can alter the design overnight, so making the model takes more time that it does to doodle it in CAD. Probably takes longer for the procurement department to set up the contract to tender the model than it does to doodle in CAD.

 

[paralay]

Preliminary estimate - 86 ft (26.2 metres) long!

Could you put it here?I think this is a mistake, the aircraft is 26 meters long and has a maximum take-off weight of more than 50 tons

 

[H_K]

Interestingly, it's actually basically identical to the old GCAP model in all respects (relative dimensions, wing location & sweep, front & tail sections etc), except for that wing trailing edge.

Also added a comparison to Dassault's NGF for good measure (though exact relative scale is unknown). GCAP is clearly broader and with a much bigger wing area. NGF doesn't appear to be much shorter, but is much more slender (typical Dassault design), and with that distinctive YF-23 style "boat tail".

 

[Jackonicko]

 

[FighterJock]

Interesting Jackonicko, certainly looks as if it is going to be a big fighter if the photos are anything to go by. Is this the actual final design or is it still work in progress if things do not work out during flight tests, like what happened to the Su-27 when that first flew as the T-10.

 

[zen]

To prosecute a target on the border of Lithuania, flying from the UK, a RoA of 1,500nm is sufficient to add modest maneuvering.
But a self deployment to Cyprus needs over 2,000nm.
But from Cyprus to Oman needs 2,700nm.

 

[SteveO]

Starting to look a bit less fugly! Still finding it hard to get excited about it though. If they announce it’s got a 1000 mile radius of action, can carry 16x Meteors internally and can buddy tank with 4 large external tanks I might pay attention

It’s starting to look interesting. I still want it to have 16x Meteor class missiles for air to air/SEAD/DEAD. For air to surface I would like to see weapons bays for the following combinations or mixes of -

• at least 4x large stand-off missiles
• 8x 1000lb glide bombs
• 16x 500lb glide bombs
• 32x SPEAR 3/SDB class weapons

Hopefully something along the lines of the LMM/APKWS will be available for the anti-drone swarm mission. Say 152 missiles in 8x 19 round pods

 

[Forest Green]

No way will the bays be that large. Half the numbers, then it's plausible.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Interesting Jackonicko, certainly looks as if it is going to be a big fighter if the photos are anything to go by. Is this the actual final design or is it still work in progress if things do not work out during flight tests, like what happened to the Su-27 when that first flew as the T-10.

This is the current design they are willing to show. Only once the Tempest demonstrator flies might we get some indication, but as Hood mentioned - they are very open that the OML can easily be changed and has been changing from what we have seen so it is pointless trying to learn much if anything from this model.

Even the Tempest demonstrator needed to be frozen at some point in its design to allow detail design. They are very secretive about it though so thus I suspect it is pretty close to what they think the final shape could be.

 

[Jackonicko]

This is the current design they are willing to show. Only once the Tempest demonstrator flies might we get some indication, but as Hood mentioned - they are very open that the OML can easily be changed and has been changing from what we have seen so it is pointless trying to learn much if anything from this model.

Even the Tempest demonstrator needed to be frozen at some point in its design to allow detail design. They are very secretive about it though so thus I suspect it is pretty close to what they think the final shape could be.

The demonstrator is a UK-only TDP, whose design was frozen with the CDR in April. The GCAP SDD phase doesn't even begin until next year, so it's likely that it will be really very different.

 

[Jackonicko]

Could you put it here?I think this is a mistake, the aircraft is 26 meters long and has a maximum take-off weight of more than 50 tons

I'm pretty sure that it's around the 65 ft mark, with a span of about 50 ft.

 

[FighterJock]

Fingers and toes crossed it does not change much during the design phase BLACK_MAMBA, I am liking what I am seeing so far.

 

[SteveO]

It’s starting to look interesting. I still want it to have 16x Meteor class missiles for air to air/SEAD/DEAD. For air to surface I would like to see weapons bays for the following combinations or mixes of -

• at least 4x large stand-off missiles
• 8x 1000lb glide bombs
• 16x 500lb glide bombs
• 32x SPEAR 3/SDB class weapons

Hopefully something along the lines of the LMM/APKWS will be available for the anti-drone swarm mission. Say 152 missiles in 8x 19 round pods

No way will the bays be that large. Half the numbers, then it's plausible.

I think they could be. Say 2x tandem centreline Storm Shadow sized bays and another 2 either side in a diamond configuration might work. Each bay could have 4x Meteor class missiles with door mounting (2 in bay, 2 on doors).

Not impossible and it wouldn’t have to fly maxed out very often anyway.

Hopefully it will be an impressive weapon load or I’ll get bored again

 

[paralay]

the wing area is 133 m2
the dotted line in the diagram shows the F135 engines

 

[Jackonicko]

the wing area is 133 m2
the dotted line in the diagram shows the F135 engines

It's 19.8 m long (fuselage length, excluding overhang of tailfins), and has a span of 15.6 metres.

Some surface detail including bay locations from a Leonardo video...

 

[Jackonicko]

And some bay details from an MBDA video

 

[SteveO]

Wow, an F-35B weapons fit…. FFS!

 

[kqcke for you]

Looks way too small

 

[Bruno Anthony]

Hes revised his estimate to 65ft (19.8m) which is still almost a meter longer than an F-22. Not sure I have much confidence in it, someone else in the thread is suggesting 19.0m based on canopy scaling to the J-20 but we have seen the Tempest mock-ups actually have unusually large cockpits with massive canopy panes.

Follow on propaganda

https://twitter.com/x/status/1816924907185258822

View: https://x.com/jona2i/status/1816924907185258822?s=61&t=XGowph07Gg26dUO_Zg9xwg

 

[Jackonicko]

Wow, an F-35B weapons fit…. FFS!

"This video is for illustrative purposes only..."

There may be additional side bays...

 

[Jackonicko]

Wow, an F-35B weapons fit…. FFS!

Also, you understand what a 'system of systems' is, right? And you get what GCAP's main role within that is? Every Tempest will be accompanied by adjuncts and effectors of all shapes, sizes and roles, backed up by F-35s and Typhoons carrying the free world's stock of SPEAR and SPEAR EW.

 

[Jackonicko]

Follow on propaganda

https://twitter.com/x/status/1816924907185258822

View: https://x.com/jona2i/status/1816924907185258822?s=61&t=XGowph07Gg26dUO_Zg9xwg

If it is, it's well supported propaganda, since at Farnborough he spoke to Air Commodore Jonny Moreton (former head of the RCO, now responsible for FCAS/GCAP with BAE), Air Commodore Martin Lowe, FCAS Programme Director, Paul Wilde, BAE's head of Tempest, Andrew Howard, Leonardo's Tempest Technology lead, and the three industry Tempest chiefs, Herman Claesen of BAE, Guglielmo Maviglia from Leonardo and Hiroshi Shitaishi from Mitsubishi, plus a number of senior officers, ministers (from all three nations) and programme insiders. He was mates with many of them in his University Air Squadron days.

 

[Bruno Anthony]

it's well supported propaganda

The goal is to shoot down Russki or ChiCom planes or shoot down LockMart sales? Euros tend to get confused about this.

Anyway, congratulations on “superseding” a design frozen 30 yrs ago.

 

[Kota]

Follow on propaganda

https://twitter.com/x/status/1816924907185258822

View: https://x.com/jona2i/status/1816924907185258822?s=61&t=XGowph07Gg26dUO_Zg9xwg

Even if it is propaganda, I would still believe it over the Sparky Reformer who still spouts the "F-35 can't dogfight meme"

 

[SteveO]

Also, you understand what a 'system of systems' is, right? And you get what GCAP's main role within that is? Every Tempest will be accompanied by adjuncts and effectors of all shapes, sizes and roles, backed up by F-35s and Typhoons carrying the free world's stock of SPEAR and SPEAR EW.

Yep, please don’t mistake my frivolous comments for ignorance of the program. I just hope that Tempest can at least match the F-15EX 12x BVRAAM capability internally and have the weapon bay depth for large stand-off missiles.

I’ll only be happy if it’s got a large flexible weapons bay that can take either more weapons, fuel or laser juice on the mission.

Looks good on top, hopefully the bottom won’t disappoint

 

[donnage99]

Even if it is propaganda, I would still believe it over the Sparky Reformer who still spouts the "F-35 can't dogfight meme"

Yep people who still believe f-35 is a pig still stuck in early 2010's version of the jet. Since then the flight control has advanced and expanded

 

[Hydroman]

I don't think we will see any 6th gen aircraft with F-23 type v-tails. The European and Asian concepts start out this way but seem go with just canted twin verticals. I know when I was at Northrop, we put a lot of development work into the v-tail configuration for optimization, performance and low RCS balance, especially for an air superiority fighter and other platform applications. Our YF-23 even surprised Lockheed and even scared them, Lockheed put a "red team" together after our roll-out, not boasting, just the facts.

 

[litzj]

It's 19.8 m long (fuselage length, excluding overhang of tailfins), and has a span of 15.6 metres.

Some surface detail including bay locations from a Leonardo video...

is that correct ucav's eng inlet?

 

[Hydroman]

From looking at the latest GCAP configuration, seems to be more of an interceptor, does anyone know if multi-axis/2D thrust vectoring is an option or consideration? Looks like elevons and rudders/all-moving verticals only. If engines are powerful enough, could maintain a good amount of energy in a high-g turn scenario and not bleed down quickly like the F-102/F-106 series.

 

[Scott Kenny]

So we are planning on designing a Meteor Mk.2 with an improved dual mode seeker, that will prove to be a deadly combination in air combat. Would it have feature longer range than the baseline Meteor?

Have to? No, but I'm sure "more range" is on the desired capabilities.

It's just clickbait from the right-wing press and the usual suspects (RUSI) trying to discredit Labour before they've even begun work. Quite rightly no Minister is going to second-guess what the defence review will say. It's obvious that Tempest is vital to UK industry as well as that of Italy and Japan, but Leonardo throwing its toys around over workshare and Saudi petro dollars lurking around in the backroom shows nothing is yet a done deal.

I suspect there will be some kind of tradeoff analysis of ordering more F-35s now or waiting for Tempest in 2035 - assuming of course it arrives on time and on budget, which with the track record of the industry and aviation projects (and other MoD programmes) seems unlikely.

I'll be shocked if we see Tempest IOC in 11 years.

Previous multinational programs have not worked so quickly.

Dunno… could be anything up to a slightly scaled up A-5 Vigilante (2x J79 @ 17,000lbf each, 80,000lb max take off weight) or Mirage IV (2x Atar 9K @15,800lbf, 70,000lb max take off weight.

With 20,000lb EJ200s for the demonstrator and significantly more powerful engines in the production aircraft, why not. That said I don’t see the logic of a 100,000 lb fighter… we’re all speculating.

A 100klb fighter is carrying ~40+klbs of fuel and ~5000lbs (or more) of weapons.

How likely is it that this is the final design? I find it curious that the loyal wingman will have canards (which will lead to bigger RCS) but the mothership won't, considering the drone will probably fly ahead of the manned fighter.

Means the drone gets detected well before the fighter does. I fail to see the issue with this, especially if the drone is capable of dogfighting.

The design also looks like was made very large to have a huge range to contend with the J-20 in the Pacific. Something that is almost certainly a requirement for the Japanese, but I'm fairly certain Italy and the UK (and most export prospects) could do without. I sense a major compromise happened.

UK wants something that can fly BARCAP against bombers carrying cruise missiles before they launch. They also likely want something that can fly to Moscow and back from bases in the UK, which implies a 2500km combat radius.

 

[paralay]

length 20.4 m
wingspan 16.2 m
height 5.0 m
wing area 122 m
2F136 engines 2 x 19500 kgf / 12750 kgf
maximum take-off weight 39000 kg
normal take-off weight is 28,000 kg
fuel 12,000 kg
combat load 8000 kg
flight range is 3,300 km.

 

[Kiltonge]

Tornado worked just fine. And Typhoon did as well. Because everyone wanted the same thing...look at the original requirements....

Tornado: UK wanted deep-strike interdictor, Germany wanted all-weather CAS and maritime strike, Italy wanted single-seat tactical fighter with ground-attack. Germans perhaps got what they wanted, nobody else did.

Typhoon: originated as Jaguar replacement for RAF Germany, ended-up replacing Phantom and Tornado because nothing else was available. Italy and Spain perhaps got what they wanted, UK and Germany had to compromise.

Not a great track record of satisfying requirements.

GCAP has an emphasis on range for UK and Japanese ADIZ patrols / interception, but why would Italy need that range?

 

[damawo]

From looking at the latest GCAP configuration, seems to be more of an interceptor, does anyone know if multi-axis/2D thrust vectoring is an option or consideration? Looks like elevons and rudders/all-moving verticals only. If engines are powerful enough, could maintain a good amount of energy in a high-g turn scenario and not bleed down quickly like the F-102/F-106 series.

There was open call for recruitment about deflector nozzle test (2024/6)
pls see link.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/japanese-next-generation-fighter-studies-pre-gcap-aka-i3-f-3.11566/post-694337

 

[ItalianAFDFail]

GCAP has an emphasis on range for UK and Japanese ADIZ patrols / interception, but why would Italy need that range?

Italy's flight envelope includes and is also envisioned as patrols over the mediterranean, the Elongated Mediterranean envelope we have for the navy does not apply fully but to give you a rough idea it could be viewed as that, another thing Italy wants is to have
1st) more jobs on the works, even if the program is fairly "old" as it was started 4 governments ago (when you look at our politics) the current government wants to have as many jobs as possible, if the GCAP leads to it they will take it
2nd) the AMI wants to match or exceed Typhoon's range, looking at our position in the world in the scenario we would have in a possible war with our most likely problematic nation (IE Russia) the envelope the AMI has apart from the 2 or 3 squadrons we have deployed in eastern europe is the Anti-Shipping strike role, already performed by Typhoon and in a limited capacity by TORNADO untill it isn't completely replaced, Leonardo saw that Tempest needed electronics and jumped immediately in because they need to stay relevant and independent from other competitors in the industry, the AMI wants to upgrade capabilities and does not want any compromises this time, they want the work to go smoothly nowadays we also are deploying forces in the South Pacific and well (yes i know they are excercises but at the same time we cannot underestimate it at as a random thing), range is needed there, we want to match what we have and other than that since Typhoon led to a good amount of money to the Italian Aerospace industry they likely also see GCAP as a way to keep our know-how, to expand it and to not being left behind, i belive the AMI and the military learned very well after the mess that was our defense policy in the cold war (Look at the F-104 in italian service and you will see what the issue is, keeping a plane like that in service untill 2004 is just plain ludicrous).
hope this helps, if i sound like an asshat let me know because i don't want that to be the belief, have a great day and Buona Giornata