Gibbs & Cox project 10921-E: The Destroyer for the Soviet Union

[awhalen61]

Hi all. I've been working on this essay for a while, but as it's not a well known project I figured I'd share it here.

The short historical background on this project is simple: When the Soviets came to Gibbs & Cox for battleships in the late 30s, they also looked for some destroyers to be built in the US. 6 design variants are known, but I only have the blueprints for one of them (for now). This was Project 10921-E, which the Soviets intended to buy before Molotov-Ribbentrop and the invasion of Poland put a stop to these efforts.

I'm working to have this published in Warship International, and I'm hoping to compile all of the Gibbs & Cox Soviet export projects into their own book at some point (COVID has severely slowed my efforts with NARA), But that is a while away, and I'll share what I have now.

Essay available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nmOCNEAr8WQ8G_UpwOxKv85hABrqr-4a2nLncNncR9o/edit?usp=sharing

Blueprint images available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nmOCNEAr8WQ8G_UpwOxKv85hABrqr-4a2nLncNncR9o/edit?usp=sharing

Sadly the blueprints themselves were too large to scan, so some of the images are of debatable quality.

I'm working on getting some of the other Gibbs & Cox designs for the Soviets from this time period, but keep in mind the essay itself is a work in progress, and given a lot of the information I'm waiting to pull from NARA, it may heavily change before publication.

 

[ptdockyard]

I would be very interested in further designs by Gibbs and Cox. There is a book in this given the designs they had for the Soviets and things I have seen like the 1940 light destroyer/DE with 2-4", 2-3" and 6-TT.

Dave G.

 

[ptdockyard]

I caught this comment in the text:
" the Soviet delegation was shown 6 plans on the 6th of March- one for a 900 ton destroyer, three for 1600 ton destroyers, and two for 2400 ton destroyers"

Any information on these designs, especially the little 900 ton one?

Dave

 

[awhalen61]

I caught this comment in the text:
" the Soviet delegation was shown 6 plans on the 6th of March- one for a 900 ton destroyer, three for 1600 ton destroyers, and two for 2400 ton destroyers"

Any information on these designs, especially the little 900 ton one?

Dave

unfortunately the closing of NARA due to Covid-19 has absolutely kneecapped me in terms of research. I was hoping to have all the destroyer designs dug up at the very least by this point- I went through a thousand pages of microfilm and found a list of files to request, but NARA personnel are not on site at the moment.

NARA Request 1930-1939: 711.00111 Armament Contorl (Military Secrets)/723 - 711.00111

Box 3845 to 3853 Record Group 59: General Records of the Department of State, 1763 - 2002 Series: Purport Lists and Cards, 1910 - 1959 File Unit: 1930-1939: 710.G Bills of Exchange/l - 711.00111 Armaments Control (Military Secrets)/722 1930-1939: 711.00111 Armament Control (Military Secrets)/...

docs.google.com

This document has the list of files I am requesting as well as the text for all letters i was able to find on the website of the Office of the Historian.

 

[ptdockyard]

*Sigh*....always something.......

Dave

 

[awhalen61]

here's Earl_of_Arland's interpretation of the ship in Soviet service, with the originally planned 130mm/55 B-2-U dual purpose mounts.

 

[Tzoli]

It is sad that you could not get any information from the company itself about it's offered designs.

 

[Pioneer]

Thank you for sharing your research Kingpin6100
You are correct, I know nothing about this Soviet/Gibbs & Cox cooperation and as a consequence have found this very interesting.

I look forward to reading your essay and wish you the best with its publishing!


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Graham1973]

I've just stumbled across this thread and since I only knew about the Gibbs & Cox battleship designs, this is definitely interesting. Has there been any progress since 2020 in accessing/assessing the surviving documentation?

 

[awhalen61]

I've just stumbled across this thread and since I only knew about the Gibbs & Cox battleship designs, this is definitely interesting. Has there been any progress since 2020 in accessing/assessing the surviving documentation?

Unfortunately, while i still do have the list of documents to acquire, certain... ah... real world events have prevented a research trip to this point

 

[awhalen61]

Hi all. Currently in Maryland with a couple more days at NARA to come.

So far, I've confirmed that the 5"/38s Gibbs originally designed these ships with were in fact dual purpose, not the Mk. 22 single purpose as I'd thought. Additionally, I've found out that once the Navy Department denied numerous parts of the design for export (including the 5"/38 guns), Gibbs intended to substitute 4" twin guns, instead of the simpler single mounting. I would assume these mountings would be functionally identical to the ones used on the Clemson-class ships Hovey and Long, but I haven't found documents confirming that yet, although later updates to the design removed the guns entirely, making it a bit of a moot point.

Additionally, looks like i was slightly off on the naming convention. From the original plans, I had assumed that it was Design 10921-E, with E standing for export. After taking a look at the supporting documents and plans, it looks like it'd be more accurate to say it's Design 10921, revision E.

I've also found documentation on the 2400t destroyer leader that was offered. Nothing on the smaller destroyers yet. Much to sort through and more to come.

 

[Tzoli]

If you came accross any mention of a 1944 or 45 battleship design please take a photo or two as well!

 

[awhalen61]

Unfortunately I was unable to find any profiles of the 2400t Destroyer Leader design. Additionally, zero references to the smaller destroyers that i'd found mentioned in HUAC testimony. I would say that these designs either don't exist (more likely) or they were procured from another ship design firm (much less likely). With some good news, I will be getting high quality scans of the previous blueprints, and I found plenty more information on the detailed specifications of that ship, as well as seeing exactly how close it came to being ordered.

If you came accross any mention of a 1944 or 45 battleship design please take a photo or two as well!

Unfortunately while I have been keeping an eye out for other interesting exports, the files I had were from 1930-1939. I still have more time left, though, so if I do see anything I will most certainly keep an eye out

 

[awhalen61]

HQ Scans of the Inboard and Outboard profiles as well as deck layers of Pr. 10921-E. These are ~16000x9000, so thumbnails may not load.

 

[Scott Kenny]

HQ Scans of the Inboard and Outboard profiles as well as deck layers of Pr. 10921-E. These are ~16000x9000, so thumbnails may not load.

That looks a lot like a Gearing! 2A1 for twin DP mounts, 2x5 torpedo tubes.

I'm also amazed at just how much more angled the bows of modern ships have gotten compared to the near-vertical bows of a 1930s design.

 

[awhalen61]

That looks a lot like a Gearing! 2A1 for twin DP mounts, 2x5 torpedo tubes.

I'm also amazed at just how much more angled the bows of modern ships have gotten compared to the near-vertical bows of a 1930s design.

I'd say it's much closer to the maximum you could get out of a slightly bigger Gleaves hull (and likely, too much). I'd need to look at the hull lines, but given the look of the design and the time period I feel almost completely certain in saying it's based on Gibbs' Gleaves design. That also means, imo, that this project as designed, with the intended 5"/38 DP guns, would probably have turned out to be too ambitious for the hull, and it probably would have needed weight savings likely in the form of a change in the main battery, as well as likely not hitting the intended 40(!) knots.

 

[awhalen61]

Gibbs & Cox 2400t Destroyer Leader Design 10911 for the Soviet Union

Inboard & Outboard profile not yet found.

Dimensions:
L: 413' 3" oa
B: 40' 10"
D: 12' 8"
Displacement: 2440 Tons Std., 2745 Tons Full
Speed: 78,000 shp on 2 shafts for 42.5 knots at full speed
Maximum cruising radius: 6900nm
Armor: 1/2" STS on main deck over machinery, pilot house and gun director

Armament:

4x2 127mm/38 dual purpose guns
2x4 28mm Chicago Piano AA gun
2x1 12.7mm Browning MG
2x5 Torpedo tubes (Torpedoes to be of Soviet manufacture)
1 gun director

Offset machinery: B-E-B-E

3 searchlights: 1x36", 2x24"

Complement: 250 men

 

[Scott Kenny]

42.5 knots?!? Holy crap!!!!!!

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Gibbs & Cox 2400t Destroyer Leader Design 10911 for the Soviet Union

Inboard & Outboard profile not yet found.

Dimensions:
L: 413' 3" oa
B: 40' 10"
D: 12' 8"
Displacement: 2440 Tons Std., 2745 Tons Full
Speed: 78,000 shp on 2 shafts for 42.5 knots at full speed
Maximum cruising radius: 6900nm
Armor: 1/2" STS on main deck over machinery, pilot house and gun director

Armament:

4x2 127mm/38 dual purpose guns
2x4 28mm Chicago Piano AA gun
2x1 12.7mm Browning MG
2x5 Torpedo tubes (Torpedoes to be of Soviet manufacture)
1 gun director

Offset machinery: B-E-B-E

3 searchlights: 1x36", 2x24"

Complement: 250 men

Enough to make a Porter blush. This thing is comparable in size to a Type 1936, though admittedly the German destroyers would love for even half the combat particulars of this design.

 

[Torsionbar]

Gibbs & Cox 2400t Destroyer Leader Design 10911 for the Soviet Union

Inboard & Outboard profile not yet found.

Dimensions:
L: 413' 3" oa
B: 40' 10"
D: 12' 8"
Displacement: 2440 Tons Std., 2745 Tons Full
Speed: 78,000 shp on 2 shafts for 42.5 knots at full speed
Maximum cruising radius: 6900nm
Armor: 1/2" STS on main deck over machinery, pilot house and gun director

Armament:

4x2 127mm/38 dual purpose guns
2x4 28mm Chicago Piano AA gun
2x1 12.7mm Browning MG
2x5 Torpedo tubes (Torpedoes to be of Soviet manufacture)
1 gun director

Offset machinery: B-E-B-E

3 searchlights: 1x36", 2x24"

Complement: 250 men

Thank you for sharing. No page 6? Is there a date marked?

 

[awhalen61]

Thank you for sharing. No page 6? Is there a date marked?

Sorry, I can't believe I missed this. The design is dated April 10, 1939 and for whatever reason there is no page 6. It skips from 5 to 7.

I have another archives trip planned for mid december. If i'm lucky, I may find the inboard and outboard profiles.

 

[ptdockyard]

Sorry, I can't believe I missed this. The design is dated April 10, 1939 and for whatever reason there is no page 6. It skips from 5 to 7.

I have another archives trip planned for mid december. If i'm lucky, I may find the inboard and outboard profiles.

Hey, while you are perusing G&C design files, please check for their 1940-41 small destroyers/ destroyer escort proposals. They had one with 2-4”, 2-3” and six torpedo tubes.