German twin-engined carrier aircraft

[Wurger]

Hi guys,

quite a title for a topic!
In 1938 the RLM issued a requirement to Arado ( and another company that I will not tell right now ) to design a successor to the Ar 195, Ar 197 and Fi 167. It would be a fast multirole carrier aircraft. Arado presented in June 1935 5 proposals, under the umbrella designation E310. Besides a 1940 single engined project ( http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4516.0.html ) four with two engines such as the DB601, aS402, Jumo210 or BMW132. The version with As402 would attain 432Km/h, while the one with DB601 was predicted to achieve 630km/h. Range gives as around 800km, ceiling 5500m. There was, however, another version mounting the BMW800. Meanwhile, take a look. Pics taken from Kranzhoff`s book on Arado aircraft. More to come.

 

[Wurger]

Here comes more. The other company was Fieseler. This maker produced at least two designs, the one above with inverted gullwing.

 

[Avimimus]

Interesting...

 

[Nick Sumner]

What an amazing find! The Arado projects strongly resemble their Ar 240.

 

[shaba]

that fieseler project looks like a fokewulf design maybe based on fw 187,

 

[Artie Bob]

"that fieseler project looks like a fokewulf design maybe based on fw 187". You can't be serious!

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Wurger]

Hi chaps,

I couldn`t find anything similar to the Fw187, besides the fact that it is a twin-engined design. Probably I will post something on a developed version of the "Falke", sometime in the future.

Just to add to this thread, the other Fieseler design ( not pictured ) is the 8-P22.00-102, or Fieseler P22C ( most certainly the third design ). Span 18m, lenght 13,2m, with straight wings and radials ( BMW800 is my guess ). The foldable wings had an articulation much similar to the Ju87C. Design is dated 28.4.1940. Bye.

 

[lark]

Amazing finds. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Justo Miranda]

Here some Fieseler drawings obtained via Ingolf Meyer

 

[Justo Miranda]

And some Arado drawings , via Ingolf Meyer

 

[raravia]

Amazing finding!!!

 

[airman]

very interesting naval version based on Arado 240 !

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks for the heads up Wurger.

As you suggested, a very nice project or 3.
BMW 008s for the Fi 22C you say, any advice on engines for the others; Fi 8 P9, Fi 22A etc anyone?

Great thread.

Thanks to Ingolf and Justo too.

P

 

[Wurger]

Hi Peter,

my best guess would be the Argus As402.

All the best

 

[Flitzer]

Thank you Wurger.
I've started keylining and have started considering colours.

May I ask please what were the normal RLM shades for Marine aircraft of the time? I read somewhere they were considerably darker than the normal 2 greens or green-greys. Not sure if that is correct though.

Also would there have been a rear cockpit machine gun as similar to the Me Bf110 for example?

Many thanks
Peter

 

[shaba]

the sketch shows the back seater faceing forward so i think not.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks shaba.

You are right the back seat does face forward, but I wondered if it might swivel to face the rear in times of attack so hence the machine gun. (?)

Peter

 

[Flitzer]

If I may be a pain again please?

Am I right in that on the Fi 8-P19 and the Fi 22A, using the Argus As420 engine, the props would be 2-bladed, with the BMW 008 on the Fi 22C using 3 bladed props?

Plus, as there is a 22A and a 22C, presumably there was a B?

Many thanks.
P

 

[Flitzer]

Hi
This is as far as I've got with the Fi P22A in photoshop.

The others are in various stages of key-lining etc.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Wurger]

Hi P ,

excellent work, as usual. The BMW 800 was a high performance 9 cylinder engine, developing 1200hp. It would use 3 blades, I am sure. Regarding the aircraft colourings, I could not help you. I`ve seen some attempts to portray carrier based german aircraft in some scheme of blue, as well as green. Sorry.

 

[Flitzer]

Hi Wurger.
Greens or blues? Hmm...not to worry, I can do both, not on the same aircraft of course.

Many thanks for the info.
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

The Fi P8-19 to date too.


Peter

 

[Nick Sumner]

To what extent were the colour schemes of German shipboard aircraft a political choice? Big Herman insisted everything with wings belonged to him so any German carrier aircraft would be flown by Luftwaffe crews and come under Luftwaffe control. The midwar three shades of grey type scheme might be apropriate?

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Nick.
I can work three greys in, no problem.

P

 

[one13]

Just been reading Sea Eagles - Luftwaffe Anti-Shipping Units. it seems most aircraft were painted in a splinter pattern on upper surfaces of RLM 72/73 with RLM 65 underneath. Later planes had splinter pattern in RLM 70/71 with RLM 65 underneath and RLM 71/02 on the sides. Hope this helps.

 

[Flitzer]

Great one13.

A big help indeed.
P

 

[Nick Sumner]

Looked up my old copy of Luftwaffe Painting Guide, Kookaburra 1979 ISBN 0858800330. On page 69 is a quick reference camoflage table divided by front and aircraft role.

For 41/42 on the North African front the colours for aircraft in the maritime role are given as RLM 72/73/65.

42-44 Mediterranean 72/73/65, 74/76, 71/65, and 70/71/65 with various scribble effects.

42-44 Eastern front 72/73/65 ith some temporary white 21

41-44 western front and Germany 72/23/22, 72/63/65

1944-45 72/73/22, 72/73/65

Splinter type camo sems much less prevalent as the war continued and makes little sense over the sea.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks again Nick.

Plenty to go at there.
I still think the earlier designs (e.g. Fi P8-19) may have had a splinter scheme similar to the big long distance maritime aircraft but I agree the longer the war went on, the less likely a splinter camouflage.

I'll do as usual a few schemes for each anyway.

Best regards
P

 

[Flitzer]

Regarding the Fi 8-P19 please.

Due to the year of the drawing, am I correct in assuming all movable surfaces would have been fabric covered? Plus where would any armament have been housed if any was planned?

Whereas the 22 A and C would have been all metal?

Plus if anyone has any markings/emblem suggestions please, I would be 'all ears and eyes'.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

A little further progress.

I now believe the torpedos may have been left unpainted.

I chose to add the torpedo to illustrate one of the potential roles for a 'multi-role' aircraft.
However I am a little concerned whether this would suit, especially around the arrestor hook, tail-wheel and the torpedo?


Many thanks
P

 

[Flitzer]

Apologies if I seem to have hi-jacked the thread and 'moderator' please move if you think this should be elsewhere.

But...
more progress on the Fi P22A attached.

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Nick Sumner]

Beautiful!

 

[airman]

I can suppose that armament of these airplane was 2 guns MG15 in nose and 1 of 7,62 mm in tail like Gotha project mentioned on Midland !

 

[airman]

I don't know nothing about Argus 420 engines and 402 : which are right designation ? ???
If is 420, form lines of engines i can suppose or better , imagine that was a two argus 410 in tandem like DB 606 or DB610 !

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks for the comments.

I do have a question re: the 22C exhausts please.
After searching for references for the BMW 800 engine, I found the 801.
Are they, at least visually, similar and therefore could I use the 801 as reasonable references ?

I found numerous examples that showed the 801 with a variety of exhaust types and wondered which would be most apt for the 22C?
I've compiled a little diagram showing:
'A' the type shown on the drawings in this thread,
and
'B' the multi pipe type emerging immediately behind the engine cowling.

Many thanks for any help that may be forthcoming.
Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Another progress report, this time the Fi22C

Many thanks
P

 

[fightingirish]

Flieger, grüß mir die Sonne....

 

[Pioneer]

Hey nice work Flitzer

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Flitzer]

Thank you.

To complate the set so to speak, the latest progress report, this time of the Arado.

Many thanks
P

 

[Flitzer]

I've done a bit more.

Is there any more background history info for the Fieselers?
I've done more on those too. I will post soon.

Many thanks
P