German Special Air-Air Anti-Bomber Weapons

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

This is all, I know about german Air-to-Air-Bombing !
Maybe someone knows more ?

Here the story of Jagdgeschwader 11, they used 250kg bombs with time fuze.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_11
There was also Kommando Stamp (Me-262) , they used AB-250 and AB-500 !

Here the Stimmgabel acoustic fuze
http://www.airtalk.org/1-vt27624.html?start=0
Developed for parachute-retarded bomb dropped over Allied bomber streams.

Some other german Air-Air Sonderwaffen (Erprobungskommando 25)

Schlinge
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3629.0.html

Krebs
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/heavyweapons.html

Zellendusche
http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/waffen2.htm

More Sondergeräte
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/s/SG%20Sondergeraete/Sondergereate%20der%20Luftwaffe.html

Thanks a lot for help in advance
Many greetings

 

[Justo Miranda]

WGr.21 additional info

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Thanks ! He-177 with 33 rockets
http://www.modellversium.de/kit/artikel.php?id=4130

Many greetings

 

[Grzesio]

According to RFR minutes of early 1945, Kerze was a codename of vertical 21 cm rocket launchers - like the one installed in the Ju 88 or He 177 shown above.

Regards

Grzesio

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Thanks for the info !

Erprobungskommndo 25
http://startext.net-build.de:8080/barch/MidosaSEARCH/RL36-36639/index.htm

But what is "Liesel" ?

BTW here the "BOMBERSÄGE"
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/s/SG%20Sondergeraete/diverse%20SG/SG%20bomberseage.html
Still secret !

Many greetings

 

[Lauge]

BTW here the "BOMBERSÄGE"
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/s/SG%20Sondergeraete/diverse%20SG/SG%20bomberseage.html
Still secret !

Well, what the site says is "Der Bau des Musters konnte nicht mehr beendet werden, die bei Kriegsende noch vorhandenen Unterlagen werden noch heute in den alliierten Archiven als "Geheim" geführt. " = "The construction of the prototype could not be completed, and the documentation available at war's end is still in allied archives, classified as "secret" ".

I would have to urge caution here. I have seen too many "researchers" (I name no names, but Friedrich Georg would be one of them ) latch on to some obscure rumour, then look for facts and documentation to support it. When they can't find any, guess which of the following they conclude:

1) "Oh well, no solid information, just a lot of rumour and hearsay, so there's most likely nothing more to this"
or
2) "No solid fact! Oho....Well then, obviously, this must still be classified as secret, since there wouldn't be such a complete lack of solid facts unless someone has gone to a great deal of trouble to have it removed".

As regards the above: Is there any reason to believe that "the documentation available at war's end" actually exists ? Having said that, the mentioned "BOMBERSÄGE" sound a lot more plausible than nazi flying saucers, manned ICBM's, neutron bombs and what have you. If the documentation actually is in allied archives, and really is classified as "secret", then my guess is that it's just because no one cares enough to get round to declassifying it.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark

 

[Jemiba]

"..it's just because no one cares enough to get round to declassifying it."

Frankly spoken and very good said indeed !
In the desperation near the end of WWII surely a lot of things were proposed
or even tested, often with results, that could have been foreseen. To my opinion,
many of those "projects" may have been started "in the field" without proper
documention at all. And others were stopped, when their futility became evident.
And the allied interrogation teams quite probably were well able to separate the
wheat from the chaff ! So, if there isn't any documentation today, this could simply
mean, that there was seen no need to keep such nuisance ! ;D

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Wgr.21
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Ausr%FCstung/Waffen/Borsig%20WGr%2021.htm
There was also a FW-190 with three Wgr.21 tubes. The rockets were fired rearwards! Like "Krebs" !

RZ-65
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20109/Me%20109%20F2/Me%20109%20F-2%20mit%20RZ%2065.htm

Fw-190 with R4M
http://www.stormbirds.com/experten/products2addendum1.htm
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Ausr%FCstung/Waffen/RM4Orkan.htm

SG500
http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons01.htm

Harfe
http://www.luftarchiv.de/bordgerate/waffen2.htm

Maybe someone knows more "anti-bomber" special conversions or "anti-bomber" Sondergeräte (Special devices) ? Maybe someone knows more about Air-to-Air bombs ?

Many greetings

 

[lastdingo]

The 50mm Bordkanone and the heavily armoured "Sturm-..:" fighters of the Fw 190 series (special upgrade kits with additional armour plating) should be mentioned as well.

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

I think I can answer my own question. What is Liesel ?
Liesel = Fallschirmbombe SD-500 Br (Parachute bomb). Another Air-to-Air bomb?

Many greetings

 

[Jemiba]

"SD" in the designations of german WWII bombs means "Sprengbombe, dickwandig" (high explosiv bomb,
thick casing). Besides the effect of fragments, those bombs were able to penetrate buildings or other,
more solid objects and contained about 30% explosives in relation to their weight. A higher percentage of
explosives and a casing, that produces smaller, but more numerous fragments probably would have been
more effective, I would suggest.
Perhaps the "Fallschirmbombe SD 500" was a kind of retarded bomb ?

 

[moin1900]

Maybe there is a connection between Stimmgabel and Liesel ?

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Kommando Stamp used SD bombs.
http://books.google.com
Jagdgeschwader 7 'Nowotny'
Robert Forsyth, Jim Laurier
Page 45

Many greetings

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/s/SG%20Sondergeraete/diverse%20SG/SG%20Kleinluftminen.html
Someone knows more about the so called "Märzverfahren" ? They also wanted to develop an air-to-air version of the SC-1000 bomb with barometric pressure fuze.
Was there also parachute system for the SC-1000 ?
Many greetings

 

[Shangri-La]

Hi there,I guess I have more details for AB500, In order to improve the accuracy of bomb hits, Dr. Kortmann of Zeiss Company designed the GPV 1 reflex bomb sight, but the production volume was very small.By the way,The use of this scope is more complicated, and the pilot must adjust the scope according to relevant data, such as relative speed, relative altitude, etc. before takeoff(I'm sorry, I didn't find images on the internet and I don't have a range of images on my book).
The anti-aircraft bombing experiment was led by Lieutenant Herbert Schlüter and others in early 1945, and you can learn more about the AB500 bomb pod based on this information. The final test results were that the AB500 bomb pod was less reliable, its fuse was more sensitive, and it was prone to safety accidents.
That's the general information from my side, I hope it helps you.
The above content is from《Me262 风暴之鸟》

 

[cloud9]

Is there any information on a German AAA weapon called Scarecrow at all? Have looked but can't really find any information.

 

[PMN1]

Is there any information on a German AAA weapon called Scarecrow at all? Have looked but can't really find any information.

IIRC either Max Hastings or Len Deighton mentions a so called 'scarecrow' which was meant to simulate an exploding bomber and so cause aircrew more anxiaety....only it wasn't simulated....

 

[cloud9]

The one I have read is it mentions "poles" somehow sent up and then exploded to cause more damage to aircraft. But like I said I have looked for a reference source but not finding anything.

 

[Basil]

... an interesting statement on the subject of how to combine the optimal armament of a fighter for bomber interception - especially with regard to caliber and total weight of the armament - dated 16.02.1945 from the Sonderkommission "Bad Weather- and Night-Fight":

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8765&d=1396438453

 

[Basil]

Hi everybody

cockpitinstrumente.de - This website is for sale! - cockpitinstrumente Resources and Information.

This website is for sale! cockpitinstrumente.de is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, cockpitinstrumente.de has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

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Someone knows more about the so called "Märzverfahren" ? They also wanted to develop an air-to-air version of the SC-1000 bomb with barometric pressure fuze.
Was there also parachute system for the SC-1000 ?
Many greetings

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/ar...ndergeraete/diverse SG/SG Kleinluftminen.html ... this interesting site seems to have ceased operating ...

 

[edwest4]

I would caution about mention of certain authors. There are primary documents and there should be an accompanying footnote about the archive and the document's location. Secondary sources can sometimes be used. These include publications like Waffen Revue and similar. Statements made by contemporary witnesses can be included, and should be marked as such. I have seen reports by contemporary witnesses of the things they observed but without document references. Yes, there are still documents from the war marked Secret that have not been declassified. In the United States, NARA releases newly declassified documents four times a year. The problem I've seen is that the description for a file group can be very vague, offering the researcher little assistance. I know of researchers paying professionals to locate documents for them.

I think even at this point, it would be unrealistic to expect any document or any answer to a specific question to be available online for free. This does not mean you shouldn't look.

 

[Justo Miranda]

The Luftwaffe tested various air-to-air bombing techniques in the summer of 1943, using fighters Bf 109 G-4 that flew at 1,000 m over the stream bombers, throwing AB 50 containers, each one loaded with 34 standard infantry fragmentation grenades. The Fw 190 A-4/U3 fighters of the I./JG1 launched SC 250 bombs and AB 500 containers, loaded with 370 kg of HE and provided with time and proximity fuses, over the 'boxes' without achieving success.

 

[moin1900]

Some infos from
Fritz Hahn - Deutsche Geheimwaffen 1939 - 1945 - Flugzeugbewaffnungen

"MÄRZ"-VERFAHREN
- ME-262 "Minenleger" armed with 2x upward-firing MK-108 "Schrägstände" and "Kleinstluftminen"

Sondergerät "Bombersäge"
- January 1945
- upward-firing
- multi barrel weapon (3x20 barrels)
- based on MK-108 and "Bürste"
- photo electric cell (Fotozellenfühler)

Sondergerät "Salvenrohr"
- AVA Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt October 1944
- caliber 50mm
- 4000 - 5000 rounds per minute
- fixed and movable mount


From Waffen-Revue 48 - 1983

Another interesting lesser known device from Focke Wulf.

- Focke-Wulf Bericht Nr.03041
Thermischer Einsatz gegen Feindflugzeuge
"creating updraughts strong enough to destroy bombers"

 

[edwest4]

An Me 262 was captured at the end of the war with a 50 mm cannon mounted in the nose.

 

[Justo Miranda]

An Me 262 was captured at the end of the war with a 50 mm cannon mounted in the nose.

On January 10,1945 Hitler proposed to Göring that a 50-mm anti-tank cannon be fitted to the Arado Ar 234 jet bomber.

The Luftwaffe was already using Rheinmetall-Borsig BK 5 (Bord Kanone) automatic cannons mounted in Messerschmitt Me 410 A-2/U4 heavy fighters.

The 50-mm BK 5 was a very powerful weapon capable of disintegrating any Allied aircraft with a single shot.

Its great range would allow attacks on well defended formations of US bombers while the fighter remained a healthy distance from the defensive crossfire of American gunners, although the excessive weight of the cannon prevented the Me 410 from escaping the escort fighters.

BK 5 (50-mm) cannon technical data

Developed from the KWK 391 anti-tank cannon.

Ammunition: 22 rounds belt-fed 50 x 419 R.

Pneumatic operation system.

Weight: 520 kg. Length: 3.79 m. Rate of fire: 45-50 rpm.

Mounted in Me 410 A-2/U4, Ju 88 P-1, Ju 288 and He 177.

To carry out Hitler's order, the OKL preferred to use the new 50-mm cannon Mauser MK 214 A (Maschinen Kanone), which weighed 50 kg less than the BK 5 and tripled its rate of fire.

To test the concept, two Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters (Werk. Nr. 111899 and 170083) were modified as Me 262 A-1a/U4, with the only two nose mounted MK 214 prototypes available.

Between 20 February and March 23, 1945, the first modified aircraft flew several test flights and two operational missions, without good results.

 

[Basil]

The Luftwaffe tested various air-to-air bombing techniques in the summer of 1943, using fighters Bf 109 G-4 that flew at 1,000 m over the stream bombers, throwing AB 50 containers, each one loaded with 34 standard infantry fragmentation grenades. The Fw 190 A-4/U3 fighters of the I./JG1 launched SC 250 bombs and AB 500 containers, loaded with 370 kg of HE and provided with time and proximity fuses, over the 'boxes' without achieving success.

Do you have additional information about the functioning of proximity fuze in the picture attached? It is clearly a different system than used on the Ruhrstahl X-4.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Do you have additional information about the functioning of proximity fuze in the picture attached? It is clearly a different system than used on the Ruhrstahl X-4.

ELECTRO-ACOUSTIC DEVICES

​

​	MANUFACTURER​	FUNCTION​
Ameise	-​	proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Amsel	-​	homing device for torpedoes​
Archimedes	Telefunken​	homing device for Enzian missile​
Bad	Graf Zeppelin Institut​	proximity fuze​
Baldrian	Telefunken​	homing device for torpedoes​
Balkon	-​	German sonar for U-Boats​
BAZ-55A	Rheinmetall-Borsig​	proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Claudia	-​	AA homing device for Flak control​
Dogge	-​	homing device for X-4 missile​
El Ku	Elektro-Akoustik Institut​	proximity fuze for Wasserfall and Schmetterling missiles​
Gladenbeck	-​	direction-finder device for Me 262​
Kranich	Ruhrstahl AG​	proximity fuze​
Lerche	-​	guidance system for torpedoes​
Luchs	-​	homing device for AA missiles​
Meise	Neumann & Borm​	proximity fuze​
Pfau	-​	homing device for torpedoes​
Pudel	-​	homing device for X-4 missile​
Sieglinde	-​	AA homing device for Flak control​
Stimmgabel	Graf Zeppelin Institut​	proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Traute	-​	homing device for missiles​
Vesuv	-​	homing device for missiles​
Zaunkönig	-​	homing device for torpedoes​

INFRA-RED DEVICES

​

​	MANUFACTURER​	FUNCTION​
Adlergerät	-​	telescope for AA early warning and coordination of Flak and searchlights​
Armin	-​	target detector for missiles​
Bildwandler	-​	ZG 1221 K installation for Panther tanks​
Butterblüme	-​	ground-mapping device for bombers​
Donau-60	Zeiss​	target detector for coast artillery​
Doppellinse	AEG​	homing device for missiles​
Emden	AEG​	homing device for missiles​
Eva	-​	telescope for AA early warning​
Falke	-​	ZG 1221 installation for Sd Kfz 251 half-track vehicles​
Falter	-​	airborne seeker and warning device​
Flamingo	-​	telescope for AA early warning​
Flitzer	-​	homing device for AA missiles​
Froschauge	-​	airborne warning device​
Fühler	Uhrentechnik​	homing device for AA missiles​
Glühwurmchen	Rheinmetall-Borsig​	homing device for AA missiles​
Hamburg	-​	homing device for BV 143 and Hamburg B missiles​
Hansa	-​	homing device for missiles​
Igel	-​	homing device for missiles​
Karussel	-​	homing device for Wasserfall missile​
Kater Gerät	-​	fron-line troops warning device​
Katze	Siemens​	airborne warning device​
Katzenauge	-​	fron-line troops warning device​
Kiel E III	ZEISS​	FuG 280 airborne seeker​
Kiel Z	ZEISS​	FuG 280 airborne seeker​
Kormoran	-​	telescope for AA early warning​
Kottbus	-​	homing device for missiles​	​	​
Krebs	AEG​	homing device for missiles​	​	​
Linse	-​	homing device for missiles​	​	​
Lotte	-​	proximity fuze for missiles​
Madrid	Kepka​	homing device for Enzian missile​
Mimose	-​	homing device for missiles​	​	​
Mosel	-​	target detector for coast artillery​	​	​
Mücke	-​	airborne telescope for bombers detection​	​	​
Obi	-​	telescope for AA early warning and coordination of Flak and searchlights​
Ofen	-​	ground-mapping device for bombers​
Paplitz	ELAK​	proximity fuze for Hs 117 and Wasserfall missiles​
Potsdam L	-​	airborne termoionic seeker for bombers detection​
Netzhaut	-​	homing device for missiles​
Sammellinse	-​	ground-mapping device for bombers​
Schwalbe	-​	naval target detector​
Seehund	-​	naval telescope for target detection​
Spanner I	AEG-Mayer​	airborne telescope for bombers detection​
Spanner II	AEG-Zeiss​	airborne telescope for bombers detection​
Spanner II A/B	AEG​	airborne telescope for bombers detection​
Spanner IV	AEG-Leitz​	airborne telescope for bombers detection​
Spanner FG-1221	-​	periscope for tanks​
Spanner FG-1250	-​	nocturnal visor for land vehicles drivers​
Spatz	-​	target detector for coast artillery​
Sperber	-​	ZG 1221 K installation for Panther tank​
Sperre	-​	front-line troops warning device​
Steinbock	-​	homing device for X-7 missile​
Strahlungsperre	-​	target detector for coast artillery​
Uhu	-​	searchlight installation for Sd Kfz 251 half-track vehicles​
Vampir FG-1229	-​	night seeker for land vehicles drivers​
Vampir ZG-1229	-​	sight device for infantry rifles​
Wärmebold	-​	IR jamming device​
Walter	Leitz​	telescope for night vision​
Widder	AEG​	homing device for missiles​
Würzburg B	-​	anti-jamming device for Würzburg A radar​

 

[Justo Miranda]

Post-2

PROXIMITY FUZES

​

​	MANUFACTURER​	FUNCTION​
Bad	Graf Zeppelin Institut​	acoustic proximity fuze for AA missiles​
Baro-1	-​	barometric fuze for AA bombs​
BAZ-55A	Rheinmetall-Borsig​	acoustic proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Dogge	-​	acoustic proximity fuze for X-4 missile​
Elku	Elektro-Akoustik Institut​	acoustic proximity fuze for Wasserfall and Hs 117 missiles​
Feuerspucker	-​	electrostatic proximity trigger for SG 116 recoilless gun​
Fuchs	AEG​	radio proximity fuze for Hs 298 and Hs 117 missiles​
Isegrimm	Ernst Orlich Institut​	electromagnetic proximity trigger for SG 113 recoilless gun​
Kakadu	Donaulandische​	radio proximity fuze for Hs 293 missile​
Kranich	Ruhrstahl AG​	acoustic proximity fuze​
Kugelblitz	Patent Verwertungs Gesellschaft​	radio proximity fuze​
Kuhglocke	Rheinmetall-Borsig​	electrostatic proximity fuze for AA missiles​
Kuhglockchen	“​	electrostatic proximity fuze for Flak shells​
Lotte	-​	infra-red proximity fuze for missiles​
Marabu	Siemens​	radio proximity fuze for Hs 117, Hs 298, Rheintochter and Wasserfall missiles​
Marder	Ernst Orlich Institut​	radio proximity fuze​
Meise	Neumann & Borm​	acoustic proximity fuze​
Paplitz	Elektro-Akoustik Institut​	infra-red proximity fuze for Wasserfall missile​
Pinscher	Ernst Orlich Institut​	radio proximity fuze​
Pollux	-​	electric trigger for 89B/Fu G 16 AA bombing device​
Reineke	-​	magnetic fuze​
Roulette	Brinckmann​	infra-red proximity fuze​
Stimmgabel	Graf Zeppelin Institut​	acoustic proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Trichter	Blaupunkt​	radio proximity fuze for AA bombs​
Wiesel	Ernst Orlich Institut​	radio proximity fuze for missiles and AA bombs​
Zunder-19	Rheinmetall-Borsig​	time proximity fuze for bombs​

 

[edwest4]

Thank you Justo for that detailed reply. Do you have any intelligence report references for the proximity fuzes? TICOM, CIOS, BIOS or other? Thanks.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Thank you Justo for that detailed reply. Do you have any intelligence report references for the proximity fuzes? TICOM, CIOS, BIOS or other? Thanks.

I don't know if I have any of that material, I'll go through my files.

 

[edwest4]

It's worse than I thought. How about this? Do you have any sources for your list?

 

[Justo Miranda]

It's worse than I thought. How about this? Do you have any sources for your list?

The listings I have included in the previous post belong to a book I published in 2002, the track has cooled.

 

[edwest4]

The listings I have included in the previous post belong to a book I published in 2002, the track has cooled.

Thank you.

 

[Grzesio]

Do you have additional information about the functioning of proximity fuze in the picture attached? It is clearly a different system than used on the Ruhrstahl X-4.

It could be the active acoustic fuze developed by Rosenthal-Isolatoren GmbH (I'm unaware of its codename), intended for detonating airdropped bombs above the ground. The fuze is said to have 20-100 m range and was tested by the E-Stelle Rechlin.

As far as the list of proximity fuzes is concerned, Ameise, Kegel, Klingel, Linse, Pistole, P.L., Rheingold, Stieglitz and Wassermaus can be added.

 

[edwest4]

It could be the active acoustic fuze developed by Rosenthal-Isolatoren GmbH (I'm unaware of its codename), intended for detonating airdropped bombs above the ground. The fuze is said to have 20-100 m range and was tested by the E-Stelle Rechlin.

As far as the list of proximity fuzes is concerned, Ameise, Kegel, Klingel, Linse, Pistole, P.L., Rheingold, Stieglitz and Wassermaus can be added.

Do you have document references?