Geoffrey Hill/Westland-Hill "Pterodactyl" Designs and Prototypes

[Retrofit]

Hello,

I am looking for any information concerning the 2 tailless military projects, refered as "Pterodactyl II" and "Pterodactyl III", presented by Geoffrey HILL to the Air Minitry in 1925-1927 , after the successful tests of his first powered "Pterodactyl" (aircraft now on show at the Science Museum).
It seems, but without any certitude, that the "Pterodactyl II" was a single-seat biplane with a pusher propeller, and the "Pterodactyl III" a two-seat gull-wing aircraft with a tractor propeller.
The two projects were rejected by the AIR Ministry.

At the same time or little after, Hill was engaged by Westland Aircraft Ltd where were designed and flight tested the Westland-Hill "Pterodactyl 1/1A/1B" (2-seat side by side experimental pusher), "Pterodactyl IV" (3-seat pusher aircraft) and "Pterodactyl V" two-seat fighter.

Thanks in advance,

 

[AeroFranz]

The Pterodactyls were featured in "The Aeroplane" two or three issues ago, IIRC.

 

[Retrofit]

Thanks much Aerofranz,
Indeed in the "Aeroplane" dated September 2010 but nothing more on the "Pterodactyl II" & "Pterodactyl III" projects than the very few information mentionned in my post, unfortunately.

 

[Deltafan]

Hi, there was an article from april 2010 in the french Le fana de l'aviation Nr. 485

http://www.boutique.editions-lariviere.fr/site/anciens-numeros-le-fana-de-l-aviation-485-avril-2010-3249-2-6.html

No drawing but some words p.22 :

L'Air Ministry suggéra que les Pterodactyl Mk II et Mk III fussent construits comme des chasseurs à aile de mouette et sans queue pour la RAF. Le Mk II devait avoir son moteur à l'arrière, et le Mk III à l'avant. L'idée était que le Mk II avec une tourelle dans le nez pourrait précéder une formation de bombardiers et la défendre par l'avant, et que le Mk III avec une tourelle de queue défendrait les arrières de cette formation. Cependant, comme il arrive souvent, l'opinion du ministère changea et l'on fut prié de conserver les projets dans les tiroirs en attendant un moment plus favorable

Mk II and III : Flying "gull-wings" fighters with one turret. Projects cancelled by Air Ministry.

Mk II : rear engine and forward turret to protect in front of bomber planes
Mk III : rear turret and forward engine to protect behind bomber planes (like the Mk V)

 

[Retrofit]

Mk II and III : Flying "gull-wings" fighters with one turret. Projects cancelled by Air Ministry.

Mk II : rear engine and forward turret to protect in front of bomber planes
Mk III : rear turret and forward engine to protect behind bomber planes (like the Mk V)

Thank you very much, Deltafan!

Therefore the Mk II / Mk III design concept was later reused for the Westland-Hill Pterodactyl Mk V / Mk VI:
Mk II / Mk VI: rear engine and forward turret to protect in front of bomber planes.
Mk III / Mk V: rear turret and forward engine to protect behind bomber planes.

Hum, I will like to find drawings & specs of these Mk II / Mk III.....

Best regards

 

[Maveric]

...some specifications...

 

[hesham]

Hi,


we can put here all or most Westland-Hill Pterodactyl aircraft,and from many sites
and L'Aerophile 8/1935.

 

[lark]

Hesham, Is there some discription with the VII sideviews ?

 

[hesham]

Hesham, Is there some discription with the VII sideviews ?

My dear Lark,


I am afraid nothing about it in the article.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554758n/f24.image.r=l%27a%C3%A9rophile.langFR

 

[Schneiderman]

From Hill's 1933 patent UK427186a, a mixture of projects and built aircraft

 

[hesham]

Great find Schneiderman.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is the Westland Pterodactyl I aircraft and drawings.


Air Pictorial 6/1973

 

[Stargazer]

Topic rename, please!

 

[toura]

Hi all
From an old "aviation magazine"

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dears Toura and Jemiba.

 

[Madoc]

And then there's this one...

 

[Jemiba]

Looks great, thank you for it !
Any information about the artist or the source ?

 

[hesham]

Great find Madoc,source please.

 

[Stargazer]

Truly a splendid illustration. I would love to know who painted this.

 

[Arjen]

It's signed 'bechennec'
I'm guessing that would be Daniel Bechennec.

<edit> It is: http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/s-a-m-55-the-pterodactyl

 

[lark]

Le Fana de l'Aviation cover for issue N°485-April 2010.

Teaser for an article "Les Pterodactyles du Captain Hill"

The usual story,no projects.

 

[Richard N]

Le Fana de l'Aviation N°485-April 2010 cover

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

It is a lovely and evocative painting, however the "turret" is completely wrong.
The Pterodactyl V and VI fighters were to have an enclosed, electrically powered
turret, not an open Scarff mount.

Prof. Hill was heavily involved with the turret design and it featured twin Lewis guns
mounted on their sides and an interconnected sighting/firing system. An extensive
description of the turret can be found on pages 440-443 of H.F. King's Armament
of British Aircraft 1909-1939. The attached drawing is from that book, the photo
of the turret mock-up is from Westland Aircraft since 1915.

 

[steelpillow]

Flight has written on the subject a few times. The following are some of their longer articles, with the links in each case to the first page:
Flight refs:

• "The tailless Aeroplane: Dunne Type developed according to Modern Knowledge", Flight 29 April 1926, pp 261-263 http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1926/1926%20-%200305.html
• C.M. Poulsen, "The fighting Pterodactyl", Flight 6 Sept 1934, pp 912 and 914-916 http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1934/1934%20-%200910.html
• H.A. Mettam, "The Pterodactyl Story", Flight 26 March 1970, pp 514-518 http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%200564.html

The story about two complementary types, one with a rear turret and one with a forward turret, has appeared twice. One version has it that these were the II and III. But Mettam says they were the V and VI, with only the tail-turret version being built. I have seen a web reference to Ministry Specification F.5/33 in connection with the Mk. VI, I don't know how accurate that is. He says little about the II and III, so I suppose it is possible that the complementary fighter proposal was put forward twice.

An issue of Aeromilitaria (I don't know which one) says that two designs for the Mk. VII flying boat were produced, one with wing floats and the other with sponsons. The sponson design was selected and Saunders-Roe carried out the hull design.

The Mk VIII was a transatlantic airliner. Mettam describes it as a delta and comments that "Hill may well have been the first designer ever to propose the use of a pure delta plan-form." He does not mention any Short Bros. connection, but does say the project was short-lived because the whole Pterodactyl programme was cancelled soon after.

There is also the unhappy mistake by a Canadian web site, which refers to the Canadian NRC Tailless Glider as the "Pterodactyl VIII" due to Hill's involvement with it, and that seems to have spread a fair bit around t'interweb.

I also have a copy of A.H. Lukins' The Book of Westland Aircraft, ca. 1944, which has drawings and brief outlines of the Westland-Hill prototypes, if anybody has any specific questions about them.

I have a particular interest in the Dunne inheritance. J.W. Dunne's work is generally acknowledged to have influenced Hill, while Graham Simons, in his Northrop Flying Wings, Pen & Sword Aviation (2013) writes that; "Geoffrey Hill took advice and assistance from John W. Dunne FRAeS, the Anglo-Irish aeronautical engineer and author." Does anyone know of any source material that Simons might have drawn on for that connection?

 

[hesham]

Hi Steelpillow,


here is two different MK.VII designs.

 

[steelpillow]

here is two different MK.VII designs.

Yes, those are they. For some reason they remind me of the Blohm & Voss Bv 138 "fliegender shuss" (flying shoe).

 

[hesham]

That's right Steelpillow,and you are welcome.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is a Pterodactyl VII Model.

 

[steelpillow]

Thank you. I feel I have seen it before somewhere.

Aeroplane Monthly, September 2010 perhaps.

 

[hesham]

Maybe that's right my dear Steelpoillow.

 

[ermeio]

there is a line drawing of this aircraft, in perspective
somewhere in a magazine of the 30s
I vaguely remember it as a flught magazine, but I could be wrong.

 

[CJGibson]

There is a long article on Pterodactyl projects by Tony Buttler in a recent Air-Britain Aeromilitaria (an excellent mag, I must say. )

Chris

 

[hesham]

Hi,

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k97675232.r=document%20aeronautique?rk=21459;2

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Westland-Hill Pterodactyl V.
http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft32508.htm

http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/west_pterodactyl5.php

"TYPE.Two-seat tailless fighter sesquiplane. The fourth Pterodactyl, and third and final Westland-Hill production, was the Pterodactyl Mk. V, which made its appearance in 1932. This machine was an impressive two-seater fighter, powered with a 600hp Rolls Royce Goshawk engine, and differed noticeably from previous Pterodactyl designs. The most striking departure was the tractor arrangement of the engine, as opposed to the earlier ''pusher" types, while the wings were in sesquiplane form, with the upper plane raised above the fuselage.

The military advantages foreshadowed in the first Pterodactyl were brought to practical form in the Mark V, the rear cockpit, immediately aft of the pilot, being fitted with an electrically-operated twin-gun turret. The unobstructed field of fire from this position has only been equalled by the tail gun-turrets of modern multi-engined bombers and, with a performance equal to that of its contemporary, the Hawker Hart, the Pterodactyl V was an ideal fighter type.

Test flights, by Mr. H. J. Penrose, showed that with this example the tailless type had attained a degree of performance, stability and control equal to the conventional aeroplane. It was demonstrated to be fully aerobatic and even capable of inverted flight, but, although so successful as an experimental machine, certain secondary problems rendered a degree of re-design necessary for production.

Specification
CREW 2
ENGINE 1 x 600hp Rolls Royce Goshawk steam-cooled vee-type engine
WEIGHTS
Take-off weight 2313 kg 5099 lb
Empty weight 1602 kg 3532 lb
DIMENSIONS
Wingspan 14.22 m 47 ft 8 in
Length 6.24 m 20 ft 6 in
Height 3.55 m 12 ft 8 in
Wing area 36.7 m2 395.04 sq ft
PERFORMANCE
Max. speed 305 km/h 190 mph
Ceiling 9150 m 30000 ft
ARMAMENT 2 x Vickers guns "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXB3R6jCPX4

 

[blackkite]

Westland-Hill Pterodactyl Mk. IA video and little larger Mk.Ⅰ, Mk.ⅠA/I B three side view drawing.

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft22263.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W1pmqLHYm4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wJJwtugtxU

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks blackkite. I did not know these two original movies.

 

[blackkite]

Deltafan-san, what do you think about Pterodactyl type appeared in Hendon air show movie? I think it's Mk.Ⅳ.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
https://alchetron.com/Westland-Hill-Pterodactyl-4969169-W#-
"Pterodactyl was the name given to a series of experimental tailless aircraft designs developed by Geoffrey T. R. Hill in the 1920s and early 1930s. Named after the genus Pterodactylus, a well-known type of Pterosaur commonly known as the pterodactyl, all but the first were produced by Westland Aircraft Ltd after Hill joined them.Captain G.T.R. Hill developed the Pterodactyl series in an attempt to develop a safer aircraft: many pilots lost their lives when their aircraft stalled, went into a spin and flew into the ground, and Hill wanted to develop a design which was resistant to stalling and spinning. The pioneer J. W. Dunne had previously developed stable aircraft in the form of tailless swept wings and Hill took Dunne's ideas as his starting point.Helped by his wife, he constructed a prototype which was flown as a glider in 1924. The design gained official interest and in 1925 it was fitted with a 35 h.p. Bristol Cherub engine and taken to Farnborough. It was later demonstrated to the Secretary of State for Air, Sir Samuel Hoare.All subsequent examples were funded under Air Ministry contract and built by Westland Aircraft, who took on Hill for this purpose.

The first Westland-built type, the Pterodactyl I, was built to Air Ministry Specification 23/26. It took the form of a braced shoulder-wing monoplane with fully moving wingtips and a single pusher propellor. If both tips were moved in the same way they functioned as elevators, in opposite ways then as ailerons. It was designated the Mk. IA or IB according to which engine was fitted. It and subsequent models flew initially from RAF Andover, the Mk. IA flying in 1928.The Mks II and III failed to gain Ministry acceptance.

The next model to be built was a three-seat cabin monoplane to Ministry Specification 16/29, in which the all-moving tips were replaced by conventional ailerons. An unusual feature was the use of variable wing sweep to provide longitudinal trim. Designated the Mk. IV, it first flew in 1931.

The final Westland-built variant, the Mk. V, flew the next year, in 1932. Built to Ministry specification F.3/32, it was a two-seat fighter powered by a 600 h.p. Rolls-Royce Goshawk engine and differing noticeably from the previous versions in having a sesquiplane lower wing and tractor propeller. The lower wing was unswept and of short span, and braced to the upper wing. The forward propeller position, together with the tailless wing configuration, gave the rear gun turret an outstanding field of fire. Despite its performance and flyability in other respects rivalling its conventional competitor the Hawker Hart it was not accepted for production.

Associated with the Mk. V was a complementary Mk. VI design for a pusher variant with front-mounted gun turret, and the intention was to fly a mixed squadron with front-firing machines leading and rear-firing machines behind, but the Pterodactyl programme was cancelled before any order for the Mk, VI had been received.

At the time of cancellation, wind tunnel models of a Mk. VII four-engined reconnaissance seaplane had been tested, and a proposal for a Mk. VIII transatlantic airliner was being worked on.

After World War II, Hill helped develop the similar NRC tailless glider in Canada. Returning to England, he developed the aero-isoclinic wing and helped Short Brothers develop the Short SB.1 and SB.4 tailless swept-wing test aircraft."

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Mk.Ⅶ model.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqXU0LE_Z6c

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Mk.Ⅳ movie and three side view drawing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYSAS_4bDcQ