General Dynamics Aircraft Model Series

[hesham]

Hi All,

After studied the general Dynamics aircraft series lists,and we know this company
consisted of 12 divisions which was divided into two major groups,and we must
distinguish between; Model,Project,Configuration and Drawing.

I suggest that,there was a bout ten series for aircraft as following;

- 1954 series began in 1954 for Configuration,the first was Conf. 1 up to Conf. 2906 and raising
until 1974

- The Convair series which last known one was Model-118 AirCar continued and passing
with Models 200,201 & 218,up to Models 252,310,311 & 324

- A new series of 1961,began with Model-1 passing with Model-21 (ASW) up to Model-44
(VFX) and more ----?

- The Convair series wich began with Model-1 (XB-46) continued up to Model-100 (A-8) and
up to Model-210 (NGT),and more -----?

- Anther new series began 1961,from Model-1 up to Model-70 (AX) and more -----?

- 1974 new series for GD,began with Model-1,passing with Model-18 (VFAX) up to Model-100
(A-12 Avenger) and more ----?

- 1965 anther series for Configuration series,but I don't know it exactly,maybe began with
Conf. 3000 or Conf. 4000 ?.

- 1965 (the company re-organized in this year) a new series began with Model-1 passing with
Model-23 (lightweight fighter for navy 1970) and up to Model-333

- 1961 drawing or Model,began with Model-1,passing with Models 401 & 404,and up to Models
603 (VTXTS) and Model 643,and raising

- 1961 Project or "P",from P-1 up to P-785 & P-786,and raising until 1974.

- 1961 Configuration,began from Conf. 1 up to Conf. 1311 and raising until 1974

- 1974 Configuration,began with Conf. 1 up to year 1993

Also we can confess,there is no-sense series,but with those 10 series,you can understand
how this company worked.

Any corrections or suggestings are welcome.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also I note that,there is anther series began in 1954 for Configuration,the first was Conf. 1
up to Conf. 2906 and raising until 1974.

In 1965 anther series for Configuration series,but I don't know it exactly,maybe began with
Conf. 3000 or Conf. 4000 ?.

 

[Jos Heyman]

In his 1990 book 'General Dynamics Aircraft and their Predecessors' John Wegg wrote in his Preface that the General Dynamics history includes at least 10 companies over a period of time from 1910 until General Dynamics was acquired by Lockheed Martin. He further stated that General Dynamics had no company historian.
It is perhaps interesting to note that, although Wegg mentions occasionally model designations, he does not attempt to explain the system for the model designations or lists them - such as is the case in other Putnam books. This indicates to me that Wegg failed to identify a system and that there was probably no system whatsoever, except incidental numbering applied whenever it was convenient in circumstances.
As far as I am concerned you can attempt to reconstruct such a set of model numbering systems but unless it is backed by extremely solid references - and I mean historical company documents in this case - not second, third or 'more' hand references - I am not prepared to attach any credibility or value to such an attempt. If we want to be effective aerospace historians we should base our findings for close to 100% on factual references - the only assumptions we can use are those that can fill an extremely minor gap in the total knowledge.

 

[Stargazer]

In his 1990 book 'General Dynamics Aircraft and their Predecessors' John Wegg wrote in his Preface that the General Dynamics history includes at least 10 companies over a period of time from 1910 until General Dynamics was acquired by Lockheed Martin. He further stated that General Dynamics had no company historian.
It is perhaps interesting to note that, although Wegg mentions occasionally model designations, he does not attempt to explain the system for the model designations or lists them - such as is the case in other Putnam books. This indicates to me that Wegg failed to identify a system and that there was probably no system whatsoever, except incidental numbering applied whenever it was convenient in circumstances.
As far as I am concerned you can attempt to reconstruct such a set of model numbering systems but unless it is backed by extremely solid references - and I mean historical company documents in this case - not second, third or 'more' hand references - I am not prepared to attach any credibility or value to such an attempt. If we want to be effective aerospace historians we should base our findings for close to 100% on factual references - the only assumptions we can use are those that can fill an extremely minor gap in the total knowledge.

Totally agree. I have never been able to determine enough logic in GD designations to consider even the start of an embryo of a list here... Convair was tough enough, but GD often seems totally random! So to me the above assumptions are a pure speculation at this stage.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

of course all of my work is suggesting and speculation,and also after that,there is
many mysteries still there.

 

[Stargazer]

General Dynamics is a headache, for sure. That is one point we can all agree upon.

The Convair designations system started at Model 1 (the XB-46) in 1947 went up to roughly Model 70 in 1968 (a proposal for the A-X program) in perfect chronological order. The name General Dynamics applied to a great number of them. I'm not giving them all, only the ones of the GD era, and not all the variants, only the basic numbers here:

• Model 4 was the B-58 Hustler bomber series (1951+).
• Model 8 was the F-102 Delta Dagger/F-106 Delta Dart series (1952+).
• Model 22 was the 880 airliner series (1959+).
• Model 27 was the Atlas D/E/F missile series (1960+).
• Model 29 may have been a Titanium Development Program (1961).
• Model 30 was the 990 Coronado airliner series (1961+).
• Model 31 was the same as the 880-M (or 880-25), an intercontinental version of Model 22.
• Model 38 was a 48-seat transport project similar to Fokker F-28 (1963).
• Model 48 was the Charger, a COIN competitor of North American's OV-10 (1964).
• Model 49 was a ducted rotor tailsitting VTOL for Advanced Aerial Fire Support System (AAFSS) competition (1967).
• Model 55 was the Centaur space vehicle project (1962 — a bit out of sequence, this one).
• Model 67 may have been allocated to a short-haul twin-jet (1967).
• Model 69 was the SLV-3 Standard Launch Vehicle (SLV) version of the Atlas series.
• Model 70 was a proposal for A-X attack program for USAF (1968).

A second chronological system MAY have existed after that, but it's difficult to say because we have so few numbers to be sure:

• GD-12 was the F-111 (TFX).
• GD-14 (also found as Convair 14) was Swimmer Delivery Vehicle MK 7 MOD 6, standard underwater transport used by UDTs and SEALs.
• Model 21 (also Convair 21) was a VSX proposal similar to the Lockheed S-3A Viking.
• Model 23 seems to have been allocated to a pre-F-16 design.
• Model 44 was a VSX design proposal for F-14 competition.
• Model 64 may have been a STOL Technology Development and Systems Study of 1974.

As you can see, this series of designations is too limited to really make anything definite out of it, but what is certain is that they are not part of the "old" Convair system because of the chronology. Also the fact that the name Convair continued to be used way after the takeover (to signify the Convair Division of GD) complicates matters further.

I have a few designations from 100 and above, but again, there is NOTHING to assert they were really part of the same sequence as the dates differ widely; they all seem so random that it's hard to know if there is any logic there. I for one believe there isn't. The chronology is more than erratic, and in several cases I have a strong feeling that the numbers are not so much "model" numbers as variants from an established model (with only the dash number used):

• Model 100 was also known as the VX-11 and nicknamed the "Cold Pigeon" (Have Key program).
• Model R-104 was a RALS V/STOL HATOL fighter proposal for U. S. Navy.
• Model 200/200A was a VTOL Sea Control Ship fighter, a competitor of Rockwell's XFV-12A.
• Model 201 was a series of CTOL variants of the above.
• Model 204 has been found in mention, but I have no information.
• Model E-205 was a V/STOL fighter proposal, and Model 205C an alternate design in the LWF (F-16) competition.
• Model M-210 was an NGT trainer proposal to replace the Cessna T-37.
• Model 218 was another CTOL variant of Model 200, submitted for the VFAX (F-18) competition.
• Model 300 was a 1972 Carrier Onboard Delivery (COD) proposal for U. S. Navy.
• Model 310 was a Type A proposal for U. S. Navy.
• Model A-311 was a Type A proposal for U. S. Navy.
• Model 400 was an early form of what became the F-16.
• Model 401F series was the F-16 Fighting Falcon (LWF program).
• Model 402 applied to some F-16 studies.
• Model 603E was an advanced trainer submitted for the VTXTS (T-45) competition in 1980.
• Project 643A was a STOL Tactical Aircraft Investigation in the MST program (1971-73).
• 785 was an alternate design in the LWF competition.
• 786 was an alternate design in the LWF competition.
• "1401" is related to a Proposed Lightweight Fighter Prototype (LWF).
• 1600 was an NVAX Vought design proposal, a Naval Fighter Attack Experimental based on the F-16 Block 10.
• 1601 was a similar NVAX Vought design proposal.
• 1602 was a similar NVAX Vought design proposal.

Here are also a series of designations pertaining to SSTO vehicles, so not really aircraft:

• SX-106/LV-106 were an SSTO VTOL design
• SX-107 was a slightly longer, slimmer, pressure-fed version of the Model 106 SSTO (with Y-107 being the operational prototype). An LV-107 version was also studied.
• SX-109 was a pump-fed variant, with Y-109 as the operational prototype. A variant was studied as the LV-109 Millenium Express.

Any thoughts and additions will be appreciated.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Convair (San Diego) and Convair (Fort Worth) may have had different designation systems.

The various studies in F-16 were numbered pretty much randomly.

 

[hesham]

Convair (San Diego) and Convair (Fort Worth) may have had different designation systems.

The various studies in F-16 were numbered pretty much randomly.

That's right my dear Paul,

but me and Skyblazer try to figure out the mystery series,and as you know those sequences
were launched in the years, 1947,1954,1961,1965,1974,also in my earlier post,I solved many
F-16 random numbers,and I can answer on almost (not all) questions about F-16.

 

[Stargazer]

Convair (San Diego) and Convair (Fort Worth) may have had different designation systems.

Point taken. This surely is an option worth considering.

The various studies in F-16 were numbered pretty much randomly.

Hence my many reserves and the use of "may" and my insistance that I don't think there is much logic there. At least this topic can be a place to collect all the designations we find, if nothing else.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I'm going to suggest a possible solution based on my LWF research.

I think the list here conflates several things which aren't related.

For example, all the various "models" in the LWF design history are referred to in General Dynamics original reports by the number alone or as "Configuration 785", "Configuration 401B".

Broadly, the configuration numbers follow patterns based on a 3 digit number ending in 0. Large design variations get a new 3 digit code, medium variations increment the last digit, minor variations add a suffix letter, incremental evolution a suffix number, then final tweaks another letter (e.g. 401F-16E)

LCF c.1968 - 1970?
LCF Configuration 205C
LCF Configuration 401
LCF Configuration 404

"Falcon" Configuration 404F Feb 1971

AVFFX (April - September 1971, Riccioni study)
AVFFX Configuration 401B (April 1971)
AXFFX Configuration 403 (single J101 engine)
AVFFX Configuration 501A (twin engine) August 1971

ADF (February - December 1971?)
"Alternate ADF" Configuration 770 (canard delta, side intakes)
"Alternate ADF" Configuration 772 (canard delta, ventral intake) August 1971
"Alternate ADF" Configuration 780 (conventional)
"Alternate ADF" Configuration 785 (conventional, single tail)
"Alternate ADF" Configuration 786 (conventional, twin tail).
ADF Configuration 401F (then 401F-0 all the way to Configuration 401F-10)
ADF Configuration 401FS (side inlets)
ADF Configuration 401FS-1 ((side inlets)


LWF (December 1971 onwards?)
LWF Configuration 503 (twin engine) December 1971
LWF Configuration 401F-16

We know that there was an FX Configuration 132 and 404, TFX Configuration 430, 500, 1000.

Therefore it is my belief that many of the "model numbers" above may be Configuration numbers specific to a certain project.

 

[hesham]

- 1961 drawing or Model,began with Model-1,passing with Models 401 & 404,and up to Models
603 (VTXTS) and Model 643,and raising

- 1961 Project or "P",from P-1 up to P-785 & P-786,and raising until 1974.

- 1961 Configuration,began from Conf. 1 up to Conf. 1311 and raising until 1974

I do agree with that my dear Paul,

and this achieves my old speculations about the different numbers we have.

 

[hesham]

Hi All,

After studied the general Dynamics aircraft series lists,and we know this company
consisted of 12 divisions which was divided into two major groups,and we must
distinguish between; Model,Project,Configuration and Drawing.

I suggest that,there was a bout ten series for aircraft as following;

- 1954 series began in 1954 for Configuration,the first was Conf. 1 up to Conf. 2906 and raising
until 1974

- The Convair series which last known one was Model-118 AirCar continued and passing
with Models 200,201 & 218,up to Models 252,310,311 & 324

- A new series of 1961,began with Model-1 passing with Model-21 (ASW) up to Model-44
(VFX) and more ----?

- The Convair series wich began with Model-1 (XB-46) continued up to Model-100 (A-8) and
up to Model-210 (NGT),and more -----?

- Anther new series began 1961,from Model-1 up to Model-70 (AX) and more -----?

- 1974 new series for GD,began with Model-1,passing with Model-18 (VFAX) up to Model-100
(A-12 Avenger) and more ----?

- 1965 anther series for Configuration series,but I don't know it exactly,maybe began with
Conf. 3000 or Conf. 4000 ?.

- 1965 (the company re-organized in this year) a new series began with Model-1 passing with
Model-23 (lightweight fighter for navy 1970) and up to Model-333

- 1961 drawing or Model,began with Model-1,passing with Models 401 & 404,and up to Models
603 (VTXTS) and Model 643,and raising

- 1961 Project or "P",from P-1 up to P-785 & P-786,and raising until 1974.

- 1961 Configuration,began from Conf. 1 up to Conf. 1311 and raising until 1974

- 1974 Configuration,began with Conf. 1 up to year 1993

Also we can confess,there is no-sense series,but with those 10 series,you can understand
how this company worked.

Any corrections or suggesting are welcome.

Also,there are some aircraft,didn't carry those designations,and may it raised up to 14 (not only 12)
different series.