GDR Volksmarine Modernisation

[thebig C]

In the late 1980s, on the eve of the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, the Volksmarine was at the begining of a large modernisation programme.
The first vessels were the Darss Class auxilaries. Next, came the Sassnitz Class, fast patrol/missile boats which never entered service and are now in service with the Polish Navy as the Orkan Class.
There are rumours that the next vessels to be completed were to be a new MCM vessel and a new frigate/corvette.
I am wondering does anybody know if the new MCM was to be based on the domestic Kondor Class....Kondor iii?? Or was it to be a liscence built Soviet Natya or Gorya Class?
Likewise,in the 1980s the GDR built the Parchim Class based on a grisha class hull. Parchim i were built for the Volksmarine, Parchim ii were built for Soviet Navy. Were there plans for a Parchim iii? Given that the Parchims were 71-75m (depending on the source) and the Polish Kaszub corvettes, built with GDR consultation, are 82m this shows there was the possibility to extend the hull.
Alternatively, given that the Volksmarine cancelled a planned 4th Koni Class Frigate.....I have heard that a new domestic design was planned??
Apologies for the lack of detail

C

 

[Michel Van]

I found thanks google this homepage
http://www.vierte-flottille.de/schiffeundboote/geplant/geplant.html
Here one Ship project from 1989

Reede-MAW-Boot 415 (MAW=Minenabwehrboot, minesweepers)
Project run from 1983 until 1989
planed was start production in 1991 and build 16 units
Displacement: 248 t
Length: 35.0 m
Beam: 7,96 m
Draught: 1,85 m
Engines: 2x DM Typ 6VD18/16AL (680 PS)
Speed: 12 knots
Armament: 1x 23mm Doppellafette 1x FAM14 and 8 variant of minesweepers weapons

from german Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarantul_class_corvette
Project 1241RE aka NATO Tarantul-class
that not GDR project but acquire from the Soviet
the first Ship the „Rudolf Egelhofer“ was delivered just before the GDR collapse
that ship became june 1991 „Hiddensee“ of the german Navy, then in december 1991 it became USS Hiddensee !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiddensee_(corvette)
how much Tarantul-class ship the GDR wanted to acquire, i don't know.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I wonder why the RTS Schellboot (Project 141) was abandoned in 1979? Budgetary issues?

EDIT: Found the answer to my own question, the East Germans did a good job on design, but the Soviet Union both wasn't able to provide the planned engines and lightweight 30mm gun in quantity, and had supplied specs for the Soviet supplied missiles and electronics (on which the entire program had been based) which turned out to be seriously inaccurate when it came to the actual hardware (It would not have all fitted in to the same craft). This would have led to a situation where the Volksmarine would have had to deploy separate ASuW and AA capable variants, project 141.1 and 141.2 respectively. Needless to say the project was reluctantly cancelled.

Found the details on this site: http://www.gerald-halle.de/entwicklung1.htm (scroll down to Nachfolgeprojekt für KTS - Boote Projekt 131.4 [Follow-up project for KTS - boats project 131.4])

Babelfish: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gerald-halle.de%2Fentwicklung1.htm&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Bing translation: http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gerald-halle.de%2Fentwicklung1.htm


EDIT2: In order to avoid confusion, I should have mentioned earlier that that it was originally planned to have two versions, the missile armed Wiesel, with 2 P-21/22 missiles and a 23mm gun (probably a last minute design change to try and get around the 30mm shortage), and the mine armed Nerz, with the original 30mm gun and 6 mine dispensers, or alternatively, 14 combat swimmers and equipment. Both versions also had 2 533mm torpedoes in hull mounted tubes.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Here are some links (part of the Deutsches U-Boat Museum website) containing information on the abortive 1950's attempt by East Germany to build it's own U-Boat flotilla:

General
Noteworthy Events
U-Boat Types

 

[Hood]

http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/viewtopic.php?t=2826&highlight=gdr&mforum=warshipprojects
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/viewtopic.php?t=3213&highlight=minesweeper&mforum=warshipprojects

These pages might provide some more info too. (You need to sign in to read these pages though)

 

[thebig C]

Hey Gang!

Thanks so much for those replies and apologies for not posting sooner (combination of being very busy and ill!).
There are a few great links there. I found a few lists of both in-service types and proposals on German wikipedia. I also found pretty much the same info on some German sites. That was purely by accident by translating various keywords. I was unabl;e to find a forum I stumbled accross ages ago which dealt with the Sassnitz Class and included some great pics of the hulls lying idle after unification circa early 1990s.....hate when that happens!
Anyway, if my German was better i'm sure I could find more as I can usually muddle through with articles in French and Spanish.

C

 

[Grey Havoc]

A little bit of info on Volksmarine organisation: http://poster.4teachers.org/worksheet/view.php?id=68893

EDIT: Some more stuff, mainly on uniforms and flags, that may be of interest:
http://reflectionsofcoldwar.blogspot.ie/2012/12/east-german-volksmarine-oberleutnant.html
http://reflectionsofcoldwar.blogspot.ie/2012/12/east-german-volksmarine-maat-auf-zeit.html

 

[thebig C]

Thanks for the above GH.....haven't been online in a while

Ages ago I came accross forums in German which delt with some of their projects in detail, but do you think I can find them now....course I can't!!

 

[Wurger]

Hi, anyone of you know the MLR 1000 Habicht minesweeper class? It was projected in the late war as the Typ M46, later ressurected in the GDR and designed by Walter Schlaak.

 

[thebig C]

Hey Wurger

Don't think I've heard of that....have you tried looking at the links Hood kindly posted above?

C

 

[Arjen]

Hi, anyone of you know the MLR 1000 Habicht minesweeper class? It was projected in the late war as the Typ M46, later ressurected in the GDR and designed by Walter Schlaak.

Entry from 'Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1947-1995', Conway Maritime Press 1995:

'HABICHT' class minesweepers/minelayers

Displacement:    510t ('Habicht II' 670t)
Dimensions:      194ft 11in ('Habicht II' 213ft 7in) x 26ft 3in x 7ft 10in ('Habicht II' 8ft 2in)
                 [i]59.1m (65.1m) x 8.0m (8.1m) x 2.4m (2.5m)[/i]
Machinery:       2 shafts, 2 diesels, 2500bhp = 18kts ('Habicht II' 17kts)
                 Range 3700nm
Armament:        1-85mm, 8-25mm (4x2), 2 DCT (22 DC), 18 mines ('Habicht II' 20 mines)
Sensors:         Radar navigational; sonar Tamir II
Complement:      38

Class (nos, commissioned, fate):

'Habicht I':

[i]Suhl[/i]              (6-31/213, 27.04.53, deleted 19.11.67),
[i]Schwerin[/i]          (6-32/214, 07.08.53, deleted 10.11.67),
[i]R-21[/i]              (6-33,     1953,     deleted 01.10.68),
[i]Neubrandenburg[/i]    (6-34/251, 08.12.53, deleted 10.12.65),
[i]R-11[/i]              (6-25,     1954,     deleted 28.10.70),
[i]Cottbus[/i]           (6-36/212, 02.02.54, deleted 27.02.65)

'Habicht II':

[i]Bergen[/i]            (6-11/213, 02.08.55, deleted 15.10.68),
[i]Frankfurt/Oder[/i]    (6-12/212, 06.08.55, deleted 28.10.70),
[i]Stralsund[/i]         (6-13/211, 12.09.55, deleted 28.10.70),
[i]Sassnitz[/i]          (6-14/252, 15.11.55, deleted 10.12.65),
[i]Wolgast[/i]           (6-15/273, 15.11.55, deleted 27.02.65),
[i]Greifswald[/i]        (6-16/214, 20.12.55, deleted 15.10.68)

Ordered on 1 January 1951 from Volkswerft, Stralsund. Design apparently heavily dependant on wartime 'M40' minesweepers, though diesel propulsion employed instead of steam. Last six boats completed with additional 20ft section amidships as a result of operational experience. Original armament on 'Habicht I' comprised 1-37mm and 4-25mm (4x1); 'Habicht II' class completed with armament listed above and earlier ships were later rearmed to same standard.

In 1957 6-33 ran aground off Sassnitz, and was refloated and rebuilt, with one other of the class, as salvage ships R-11 and R-21. Received names in 1960. Some later fitted with tripod masts and improved electronics, while Frankfurt/Oder and Stralsund had their 85mm replaced with 2-57mm in the mid-1960s. Most broken up on deletion, athough Stralsund was hulked as S-91 and not broken up until 1974, and R-11 was transferred to the Maritime School as the training vessel Ernst Thälmann. A few boats were scuttled off Peenemünde Haken as targets for naval aircraft.

'Habicht I' drawing from Conway's, 'Habicht II' image from 'Jane's Fighting Ships 1973-1974'

 

[Wurger]

Hi Arjen,

excellent contribution of yours. Thank you so much. This class was to be the "Minensuchtyp M46" in Kriegsmarine times.

 

[Arjen]

More information on the 'Habicht' minesweepers/minelayers here:
http://www.kartonbau.de/forum/die-minensucher-der-volksmarine-1950-1990-originale-und-andere-modellbauformen/board14-just-for-fun/t10393-f35/
Apparently the MLR1000 design, heavily influenced by the Kriegsmarine M46 type, was rejected by the Seepolizei; instead the MLR2000 design was built which was similar to the KM M43 design.

Projekt 1 MLR-Schiffe Typ "Habicht" :

MLR 1000 Habicht :

Die Daten zum MLR 1000 Habicht :

Länge ???m , Breite ???m , Tiefgang ???m , Depl. 855t , Vmax ???kn(sm/h) , Besatzung 94Mann(104Mann) , Fahrstrecke ??? ?sm , Bewaffnung 2x105mm , 4x37mm ,8x20mm.

Der 1950 an das Konstruktionsbüro Stralsund erteilte Auftrag zur Entwicklung und Fretigung eines MLR-Schiffstyp , brachte durch die Erfahrungen seines Leiters Oberingenieur Walter Schlag beim Bau von Räumfahrzeugen während des 2.Weltkrieges zu einem Projekt , welches stark an das durch die KM in Aiuftrag gegebene aber nicht mehr gebaute Minensuchboot M 46 anlehnte . Dieses Projekt mit einem Volldeplacement von 855t , einer von 2x105mm ,4x37mm und 8x20mm starken und nicht vorhandenen Bewaffnung , sowie einer Besatzung von 94 Mann , ursprünglich sogar 104 Mann . Dieses Projekt wurde durch die Seepolizei abgelehnt .
Leider verfügt keiner mir der bekannten Kameraden über weiter Daten , Skizzen und soweiter zu den MLR 1000 Habicht .

MLR 2000 Habicht 1 - 1.Bauausführung , 2 Schiffe :

Nach der Ablehnung des MLR 1000 , wurde das Projekt den neuen Forderungen der Seepolizei , maximal 700t , verfügbare Bewaffnung und U-Bootbekämpfung , kam ein Schiff heraus , welches in seinem Äußeren stark dem Typ M43 der KM ähnelte . Der Bau der 2 Schiffe des nunmehrigen Typ MLR 2000 Habicht 1 - 1.Bauausführung begann schon 1952 , sie wurden am 07.08.1953 durch die VP-See indienstgestellt .

Nun die Daten der MLR 2000-Habicht 1 :

Bauwerft : Volkswerft Stralsund

Länge 59,1m , Breite 8,2m , Tiefgang 2,5m , Depl.510t , Vmax 18kn(sm/h) Besatzung 38Mann , Fahrstrecke 3700sm , Bewaffnung 1 : 1x37mm , 4x25mm , Bewaffnung 2 : 1x85mm , 4x25mmZwilling , Wabo .

Schiff 2001 - Suhl , 07.08.1953 - 19.11.1967
Bordnummern :
VP-See : 691 , 611 , Seestreikräfte der NVA : 6-31 , 6-331 , 6-31 , Volksmarine : 311 , 331 , 218 , 213 , 231 , 213 .

Schiff 2002 - Schwerin , 07.08.1953 - 10.11.1967
Bordnummern :
VP-See : 612 , Seestreikräfte der NVA : 6-32 , 6-332 , 6-32 , Volksmarine : 332 , 740 , 219 , 214 , 232 , 214

MLR 2000 Habicht 2 - 2.Bauausführung , 4 Schiffe :

Nun die Daten zum MLR 2000 Habicht 2 :

Bauwerft : Volkswerft Stralsund

Länge 59,1m , Breite 8,2m , Tiefgang 2,5m , Depl.510t , Vmax 18kn(sm/h) , Besatung 38Mann , Fahrstrecke 3700sm , Bewaffnung 1x85mm , 4x25mmZwilling , Wabo ,

Schiff 2003 - ohne , 08.12.1953 - 01.10.1968 ( 12.1976)
Bordnummern :
VP-See : 613 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-33, 6-333, 6-33 , Volksmarine : R-21 , R21 , GST-Marineschule : MSS "Ernst Thälmann" (1968-1976)

Schiff 2004 - Neubrandenburg , 08.12.1953 - 10.12.1965 ,
VP-See : 614 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-34, 6-334, 6-34 , Volksmarine : 334, 760 ,210 , 211 , 251,

Schiff 2005 - ohne , 02.02.1954 - 28.10.1970 ,
VP-See : 615 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-35 6-335, 6-35 , Volksmarine 335 , R-11 , R11 ,

Schiff 2006 - Cottbus , 02.02.1954 - 27.02.1965 ,
VP-See : 616 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-36, 6-336, 6-36 , Volksmarine : 336 , 780 , 424 , 217 , 212

MLR 2000 Habicht 3 - 3.Bauausführung - 6 Schiffe :


Nun die Daten zu den MLR 2000 Habicht 3 Schiffen :

Bauwerft : Peenewerft Wolgast

Länge 65,1m , Breite 8,2m , Tiefgang 2,5m , Depl. 670t , Vmax 17kn(sm/h) , Besatzung 38Mann , Fahrstrecke 3700sm , Bewaffnung 1x85mm , 4x25mmZwilling , die 2 vollmodernisierten Schiffe ab 1964 : 1x57mmZwilling , 4x25mmZwilling , Wabo ,

Schiff 2007 - Bergen , 02.08.1955 - 15.10.1968
VP-See : 621 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-11 , 6-111 , 6-11 , 6-91 , Volksmarine : 216 , 236 , 272 , 215 , 213 ,

Schiff 2008 - Frankfurt/Oder , 06.08.1955 - 28.10.1970
VP-See : 622 , Seestreitkräfte derNVA : 6-12 , 6-112 , 6-71 , 6-11 , Volksmarine : 720 , 214 , [234 , 212 ] ,

Schiff 2009 - Stralsund , 12.09.1955 - 28.10.1970 (1974)
VP-See : 623 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-13 , 6-113 , 6-73 , Volksmarine : 153 , 720 , 213 , [ 233 , 211 , S-91 (1970-1974 als Schul-und Wohnschiff Marineschule Parow) ] ,

Schiff 2010 - Sassnitz , 12.09.1955 - 10.12.1965
VP-See : 624 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-14 , 6-114 , 6-74 , Volksmarine : 211 , 760 , 212 , 232 , 253 , 252 ,

Schiff 2011 - Wolgast , 15.11.1955 - 27.02.1965
VP-See : 625 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-15 , 6-115 , 6-74 , 6-91 , Volksmarine : 232 , 780 , 211 ,231 ,273 ,

Schiff 2012 - Greifswald , 20.12.1955 - 15.10.1968
VP-See : 626 , Seestreitkräfte der NVA : 6-16 , 6-116 , Volksmarine : 215 , 235 , 271 , 216 , 214,
dieses Schiff wurde gleich mit einem Gittermast indienstgestellt, es diente als Test für die ab 1957 geliferten MLR-Schiffe Typ "Krake"

Die in [ ] geklammerten Bordnummern bei den Schiffen 2008 , 2009 sind die Nummern nach der Vollmodernisierung .

<edit> Also in German, more 'Habicht' data available here: http://www.parow-info.de/Einheiten/MLR%20Habicht.html

 

[Jemiba]

This class was to be the "Minensuchtyp M46" in Kriegsmarine times.

Judging the text from that site, there actually were NO minesweepers based on the M46 in the GDR navy
inventory, as this project was rejected. The Habicht II was a slightly modernised version of Habicht I, both
were based on the M43 class.

 

[Arjen]

That's how I read it too.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a tangent for a moment, I came across this looking for something else: Weiße Flotte (Stralsund) [Wikipedia]

Could the 'White Fleet' be considered a Volksmarine reserve?

 

[Jemiba]

"Weiße Flotte" (white fleet) is a term often used in Germany for civil inland or coastal shipping companies,
as their ships are mostly painted white. It was the same in the GDR, although shipping companies there
were all state owned, not private companies. In the case of a war, of course , those ships and their crews
would have been used to serve military transport purposes, if possible. Would have been the same in the
West without doubt. But I don't think, that they could be regarded as a naval reserve per se. Many vessels
of the "white fleets (there were more than one, your link, for example leads to the "Weiße Flotte Stralsund"
were inland vessels and their crew trained for inland navigation, so of limited value for the navy, I think.

 

[moin1900]

Projekt 58 Möwe
http://www.parow-info.de/Einheiten/206/VersB.htm
http://www.foerderverein-museums-schnellboot.de/s-boote/volksmarine/sboote-vm.htm
http://www.galepp.com/lts/setup/entwicklung.htm#58
Many greetings

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a side note:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/g6k1we

 

[uk 75]

The Polish Navy had a Soviet missile destroyer called Warsaw and one of the East German Konis was called Berlin. It always seemed odd that East Germany never received a missile destroyer or two to match West Germany's three.

 

[Odysseus1980]

From Wikipedia:

The Volksmarine was first and foremost a coastal defence force, but offensive action and amphibious assaults against NATO were also included in its training and plans. It was operationally incorporated into the United Baltic Sea Fleets of the Warsaw Pact states, intended to serve alongside them in the event of war. Its designated area of operations was the Baltic Sea and the entrances to the Baltic Sea. If open warfare had erupted between the Warsaw Pact and NATO, the primary mission of the Volksmarine was to keep the sea lanes open for Soviet reinforcements and to participate in offensive actions against the coasts of hostile nations in the Baltic Sea. For these purposes, it was equipped with light forces such as anti-submarine ships, fast torpedo boats, minesweepers as well as landing craft. Routine duty was heavily focused on extensive reconnaissance activities, carried out mainly by the minesweepers and specialized electronic surveillance boats.

And the article from Wikipedia here:

Volksmarine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[fightingirish]

I found thanks google this homepage

http://www.vierte-flottille.de/schiffeundboote/geplant/geplant.html

Here one Ship project from 1989

Reede-MAW-Boot 415 (MAW=Minenabwehrboot, minesweepers)
Project run from 1983 until 1989
planed was start production in 1991 and build 16 units
Displacement: 248 t
Length: 35.0 m
Beam: 7,96 m
Draught: 1,85 m
Engines: 2x DM Typ 6VD18/16AL (680 PS)
Speed: 12 knots
Armament: 1x 23mm Doppellafette 1x FAM14 and 8 variant of minesweepers weapons

from german Wikipedia

Tarantul-class corvette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Project 1241RE aka NATO Tarantul-class
that not GDR project but acquire from the Soviet
the first Ship the „Rudolf Egelhofer“ was delivered just before the GDR collapse
that ship became june 1991 „Hiddensee“ of the german Navy, then in december 1991 it became USS Hiddensee !

German corvette Hiddensee - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

how much Tarantul-class ship the GDR wanted to acquire, i don't know.

The USNS Hiddensee, former GDR NVM Rudolf Egelhofer, lost its museum status and is now being scrapped.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1715456977571053986

View: https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/1715456977571053986?t=pV_ZlXOy31UC1R2_dWvsBg&s=19