Franco German Tornado

[uk 75]

The evolution of the MRCA into Tornado is well covered. But could the story have been different.
France and Germany had built the C160 Transall together avoiding the complex UK AW681 in favour of a practical C130 alternative.
Whereas the RAF used MRCA to get a strike aircraft (Must Refurbish Canberra Again) Germany and Italy wanted a fighter. France had a VG fighter flying (Mirage G) and needed funds to get it into service.
Disenchanted with national (VJ101) and joint (AVS) solutions to its F104 replacement requirement the Luftwaffe eyed the F4 as an off the shelf solution.
Bonn and Paris had got the Airbus 300 started despite feet dragging by the UK (HS built the wing with no UK government support) so a military programme to match it would have made sense.
So Tornado went ahead with France, Germany and Italy. Spain joined after the death of Franco.
The RAF pleaded for UKVG but ended up with Jaguars, Phantoms and Harriers into the 80s. The Thatcher government ordered the F18 following Australia and Canada. BAe had become a junior partner to McDD and then Boeing.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I've no idea but other examples of Franco-German military co-operation were the Atlantic LRMP aircraft and the Alpha Jet advanced trainer/ground attack aircraft. Plus IIRC France and West Germany were the main players in ESA and its predecessors.

You still have Italy as a partner in the TTL version of Tornado. Does that mean that Italy buys Alpha Jets to replace its MB.326s (instead of MB.339s) and Jaguars (or more Alpha Jets) to replace its G.91s (instead of the AMX). Although production of the Jaguar for France ended in the early 1980s and deliveries of the AMX to Italy didn't begin until 1988.

IOTL the Dutch Navy bought 9 Atlantic 1s and 13 P3C-Orions. ITTL do they buy 13 Atlantic 2s instead of the Orions in a joint project with France? I appreciate that IOTL the Dutch Orions were delivered from 1982 and the Atlantic 2 was delivered from 1989, although my copy of the Observer's Book of Aircraft 1981 says that the 42 Atlantic NGs planned for the Aeronavale were to be delivered 1985-90, which closes the gap somewhat and the Wikipedia article on the Atlantic also says . . .

An initial order for 60 Atlantics – 40 for France and 20 for Germany – was placed in 1963, with deliveries starting in 1965 and continuing to 1968. The production line had shut down by the time the Netherlands placed an order for nine Atlantics and Italy ordered eighteen. Aircraft from this second production batch were delivered from 1972 to 1974.

So maybe Dassault-Breguet could have built a third batch of Atlantic 1s for the Netherlands even though production of the second batch ended in 1974.

I presume that the follow-on of the Franco-German Tornado is a Eurofighter based on Rafale developed jointly by France, Germany, Italy & Spain. Is that correct? If it is correct what does the UK buy instead of the Typhoon? More Hornets or Super Hornet perhaps?

 

[Archibald]

Mirage G flew in November 1967 but was single TF306. Mirage G4 is the elephant in the room there (1968-69, it evolved into the smaller G8s, flown in May 1971 and May 1972).
I'll check Liébert & Buyck to see what they said about the G4.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Mirage G flew in November 1967 but was single TF306. Mirage G4 is the elephant in the room there (1968-69, it evolved into the smaller G8s, flown in May 1971 and May 1972).
I'll check Liébert & Buyck to see what they said about the G4.

There's also the G.8A/ACF (informally known as the Super Mirage), Mirage 2000 and Mirage 4000.

@uk 75 which French aircraft is the Franco-German Tornado build instead of? The French aircraft that entered service with the AA closest to the OTL Tornado is the Mirage 2000.

 

[Michel Van]

The MRCA had to be replacement for allot aircraft
Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Italy wanted there F-104, F-84 replace
Original two version were planned a pure fighter and Bomber using same fuselage

here Britain enter the MRCA program and it became Tornado

but had Britain to enter the MRCA program ?
had Labour program took F-111K as bombers and Jaguars as jet trainer in mid 1960s
there is no need to join MRCA

Here enter France the MRCA program
now why join France this ? for politics and contracts !
Dassault could promote the Mirage G and G8 as templates for MRCA (in order to save the Program)
were G is single engine Fighter and G8 tactical bomber with two engines

Belgium Netherlands and Italy (later Spain) would welcome the MRCA G as what they need
while Germany has issue that single engine Fighter demanding the MRCA G8
here it depends how Paris and Bonn get a agreement on this

The Outcome ?
German Luftwaffe don't buy MDD F-4
no need for F-16 in Europa !
the Falkland Wars feature F-111K bombing campaigns

 

[Rule of cool]

but had Britain to enter the MRCA program ?
had Labour program took F-111K as bombers and Jaguars as jet trainer in mid 1960s
there is no need to join MRCA

I've had similar musings, but from my own preferred Lighting FGA/FR & TSR2 angle.

If Britain goes its own way through the 60s it will need something other than a long-ish range strike aircraft in the 80s, it will need a multirole tactical fighter in the mould of the F/A18 Hornet. This will mean it would seek different partners than Germany, perhaps Canada and Netherlands might join a British 4th Gen fighter-bomber programme.

Perhaps Germany would buy/build the Mirage 4000, and France might buy a batch as well instead of the 2000N and an ASMP carrier.

 

[uk 75]

I think the downside of a Mirage G based MRCA consortium is the loss of Mirage 2000 and UKVG.
A French Air Force with single and twin engined Mirage G derived Tornados would not have needed Mirage F1, 2000 or 4000.
By 1967/8 the RAF has already lost TSR2, F111 and AFVG. Without the MRCA lifeline BAC would have had to survive on Jaguar until the 80s when F18s become a reality.
The Euro MRCA, however, might have been attractive enough for Belgium, Denmark, NL and Norway to choose it to replace F104. Canada might even have chosen it over F18.
It is also possible that the UK might have swallowed its pride in the Heath era and joined the programme.