Franco-german super Caravelle

[Cjc]

So I was reading " concorde and the Americans" and one of the things that caught my eye was that neither Britain or France were each others first choice.

Britain originally wanted to work with America inorder to build the first supersonic jet, but the Americans were set on there mach 2.7 speed limit and refused to lower it to mach 2.2.

For the French he dosnt really explain what went wrong with there agreement, it was on the French side sense Germany really wanted this program (they felt it would only do good for there aerospace industry) he implied that it was that sud wasn't confident in there design and need help which wasn't something Germany could provide, but I have a hard time believing that, sud seems very confident when they showed off the super Caravelle in 61.

Any way I was curious what you think the franco german super Caravelle would look like, personally I suspect it would be very close to sud's super Caravelle simply because Germany dosnt have a lot of experience with super sonic jets (they gust started biulding the f-104) or passenger planes. But that wouldn't lead to a very successful airplane, its short range would quickly become a hinderince when they run smack into the sonic boom over people issue. But I was curious what you all think.

 

[uk 75]

The German national carrier Lufthansa did not buy the ordinary Caravelle. Nor did it buy the small VFW614 feederliner.
Lufthansa were sceptical about the economics of supersonic flight but did hold options both for Concorde and the US SST.
A German design for an SST is illustrated somewhere online. I will try and find it.

 

[Grey Havoc]

West Germany was part of the original Concorde consortium though, if I recall correctly. They seem to have pulled out at a very early stage, possibly due to the reservations held by Lufthansa that uk 75 mentioned, so I'm not sure which German companies were supposed to have been involved.

EDIT: Though some quick checking online appears to throw doubt on West Germany ever having been directly involved in the consortium.

 

[alertken]

Everybody, inc K.Owen, writing on Conc has missed the essence of Why? Where was the motive to spend vast sums for modest benefit to the privileged? UK had spent Prestige to death (The Queens, post-Depression welfare for Clydeside Commies; Brabazon Types).

It was Bombs. Concorde, Tu.144, B.2707. Bombs. Probably carrying stand-off Bombs on pylons.

RAE 1953 thought sustained supersonic cruise must be on stainless steel, Meteor-esque, so extracted our £ to try Bristol/AWA T.188. Dead end by 1957, when RAE/Aerodynamics (wholly military in culture) extracted Approval to run a Supersonic Transport Aircraft Committee. To Transport what? was not made explicit, as Minister Sandys thought the A was: not Bombs (proven right by U-2, 5/60).
Neither ONERA/France nor NASA/US had a Sandys, so both could Study undisguised Deterrents. NASA went straight to properly supersonic, so NA B-70/stainless steel+titanium. Fantabulous $. ONERA settled for aluminium, as did RAE: both, independently, came up with thin-ogee. FRG's DLR did not then really have a view on anything, stuck at Aero 101.

ONERA caused CDG to see benefit to his Mirage IVA Force de Frappe if evidence could be collected of sustained M2 cruise. This is 1960/61. UK committed to Skybolt ALBM 6/60 and to joining EEC 8/61. UK PM Mac thought "this profitable modern eccentricity" should be done and was not about to let CDG do it solo. Cabinet 6/11/62 Approved UK/France SST Collaboration in a few minutes.

Bombcorde was not a desperate afterthought. It was the obvious successor platform for Skybolt after U-2, 5/60: by 1/61 RAF sought “a long endurance supersonic {Vulcan} replacement with a variable contour missile ”R.Moore,Nuc. Ill,P139.

Br.Embassy/DC(BDRSS Staff) 31/10/62 Skybolt signal: “fear imminent canx” Moore,Illusion,P.168. If known to many Ministers...?SST deferred, to be abandoned on CDG's Non! 14/1/63.