Foreign Warship Export Designs for Japan

[Tzoli]

While Japan constantly grew in power since the Meiji restoration and being an island nation it's navy too had to have a prominent role in it's military forces The first warships of Japan were built in ofreign Yards mostly in British but there were quite a few French and a some from US yards as well but as shipbuilding industry and infrastructure evolved in Japan more and more home built warships were made of various sizes and eventually reaching the battleship categories. Even after the major shipyards were built and Japan could produce it's own large ships, offers were still made to build but at least design warships for the IJN. Here I've collected my list of various export designs for the Imperial Japanese Navy with the majority coming from the two british firms Vickers and Armstrong!

Cruisers:
Scout Cruisers:
Armstrong Design 300: 91,44ppx11,28x7,27m, 1.917tons armament unknown, from 1902

Light Cruisers:
Vickers Design 776: 134,11wl x 13,56 x 4,27m, 4.080tons, 59.000shp 61km/h, 2x2 140mm, 1x1 76mm, 2x1 40mm, 4x2 533mm, 25mm Deck, 64mm Belt, from 1920
Vickers Design 776C: 131,06wl x 13,1 x 4,27m, 3.700tons, 45.000shp 57km/h, 2x2 140mm, 1x1 76mm, 2x1 40mm, 4x2 533mm, 25mm Deck, 64mm Belt, from 1920

Unknown Vickers Design: 129,54pp x 12,88 x 4,26m, 4.100tons, 40.000shp 57km/h, 2x1 152mm, 1x1 76mm, 4x2 533mm, 25mm Deck, 64mm Belt, from 1921

Armoured Cruisers:
1st Class Cruiser Design Unknown British Designer: 121,92m pp, 10.000tons, 4x2 254mm, 14x1 152mm, 14x1 102mm, 102mm Belt, from 1902
Armstrong Design 334: 137,16pp x 20,45 x 7,43m, 9.700tons, 27.000shp 40km/h, 2x2 203mm, 14x1 152mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 47mm, 5x1 457mm, 51mm Deck, 76mm Slope, 178mm Belt, from 1902

Armstrong Design 450: 146,31pp x 23,16m, 15.000tons, 24.500shp, 8x2 254mm, 16x1 102mm from 1903

Vickers Design 127B: 132,9pp x 21,64 x 7,49m, 14.000tons, 27.000shp 43km/h, 6x2 254mm, 14x1 76mm, 2x1 457mm, 178mm Belt, from 1904
Vickers Design 151: 132,9pp x 21,64 x 7,49m, 14.750tons, 30.000shp 44km/h, 6x2 234mm, 20x1 76mm, 4x1 457mm, 178mm Belt, from 1904
Vickers Design 153: 134,11pp x 21,64 x 7,54m, 11.250tons, 44km/h, 2x2 234mm, 4x2 190mm, 20x1 76mm, 4x1 457mm, from 1904

Capital Ships:
Battlecruisers:
Armstrong Design 454: 18.000tons, 37.500shp 46km/h, 6x2 305mm, from 1905

Armstrong Design 505: 167,64pp x 23,93 x 7,92m, 18.500tons, 40.000shp 46km/h, 2x3,2x2 305mm, 20x1 102mm, 4x1 457mm from 1907
Armstrong Design 506: 146,3pp x 22,25 x 7,32m, 13.500tons, 23.000shp 43km/h, 3x2 305mm, 20x1 102mm, 4x1 457mm from 1907

Design X from Vickers: 166,12oa x 24,38m, 18.450tons, 44.000shp 46km/h, 2x2 305mm, 4x2 254mm, 8x1 152mm, 10x1 102mm, from 1908
Design Y from Vickers: 166,12oa x 24,38m, 18.650tons, 44.000shp 46km/h, 6x2 305mm, 8x1 152mm, 10x1 120mm, from 1908/10

Vickers Design 448: 4x2 343mm, 16x1 152mm, 12x1 102mm, 2x1 533mm, from 1910
Vickers Design 472: 196,9pp x 210,92oa x 28,04 x 8,38m, 26.250tons, 59.000shp 50km/h, 4x2 305mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm, 203mm Belt from 1910
Vickers Design 472C: 199,2pp x 28,04 x 8,38m, 27.600tons, 64.000shp 51km/h, 4x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm, 203mm Belt from 1910
Vickers Design 473: 71.500shp 55km/h, 4x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm, 203mm Belt from 1910
Vickers Design 474: 4x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm, 203mm Belt from 1910
Vickers Design 475: 4x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm, 203mm Belt from 1910
Armstrong Design 636: 175,26pp x 185,93oa x 25,3m, 20.000tons, 44.000shp 48km/h, 4x2 305mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 3x1 533mm, 51mm Deck, 203mm Belt from 1910
Armstrong Design 636A: 175,26pp x 185,93oa x 25,3m, 20.000tons, 44.000shp 48km/h, 4x2 305mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 3x1 533mm, 51mm Deck, 203mm Belt from 1910
Armstrong Design 652: 25.500tons, 4x2 305mm, 16x1 102mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910
Armstrong Design 654: 27.500tons, 4x2 356mm, 14x1 102mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910
Armstrong Design 655: 27.500tons, 4x2 305mm, 14x1 102mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910
Armstrong Design 658: 27.750tons, 4x2 305mm, 16x1 152mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910
Armstrong Design 659: 30.000tons, 4x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910
Armstrong Design 659A: 4x2 305mm, 10x1 152mm, 12x1 76mm, 8x1 533mm from 1910

Vickers Design 538: 176,78pp x 25,3m, 21.500tons, 44.000shp 48km/h, 4x2 343mm, 12x1 152mm, 8x1 102mm, 51mm Deck, 203mm Belt from 1911

Vickers Design 762: 280,41pp x 31,7 x 8,23m, 40.000tons, 65km/h, 2x3 406mm, 12x1 152mm, 4x1 102mm, 6x1 533mm, 127mm Deck, 254mm Belt from 1919
Vickers Design 763: 277,37pp x 32,31 x 8,7m, 46.500tons, 62km/h, 3x3 406mm, 14x1 140mm, 4x1 102mm, 4x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1919

Battleships:
Austro-Hungarian design: 16.000tons from 1900-1910

Armstrong Design 321: 140,21pp x 24,38 x 8,38m, 16.500tons from 1902
Armstrong Design 326: 140,21pp x 24,38 x 8,38m, 16.500tons from 1902
Armstrong Design 326A: 140,21pp x 24,38 x 8,38m, 16.500tons from 1902
Armstrong Design 330: 143,26pp x 24,38 x 8,38m, 17.000tons from 1902

Vickers Design 103: 18.000tons, 2x2 305mm, 4x2 234mm, 14x1 190mm from 1903
Vickers Design 118: 128pp x 23,77 x 8,23m, 15.700tons, 16.000shp 34km/h, 2x2 305mm, 4x1 254mm, 12x1 152mm, 5x1 457mm from 1903
Vickers Design 118A: 128pp x 23,77 x 8,23m, 15.400tons, 15.500shp 34km/h, 2x2 305mm, 4x1 254mm, 12x1 152mm, 5x1 457mm from 1903

Vickers Design 131: 131,06pp x 23,77 x 8,38m, 16.500tons, 18.000shp 37km/h, 2x2 305mm, 6x2 234mm, 20x1 76mm, 20x1 47mm from 1904
Vickers Design 132A: 134,11pp x 24,08 x 8,38m, 17.500tons, 22.000shp 37km/h, 6x2 305mm, 22x1 76mm, 4x1 457mm from 1904
Vickers Design 147: 134,11pp x 24,08 x 8,38m, 17.400tons, 22.000shp 37km/h, 6x2 305mm, 22x1 76mm, 16x1 47mm from 1904
Vickers Design 148: 131,06pp x 23,77 x 8,38m, 16.400tons, 22.000shp 37km/h, 5x2 305mm from 1904
Vickers Design 149: 2x2 305mm, 4x2 234mm, 4x1 190mm, from 1904
Vickers Design 150: 124,97pp x 23,47 x 8,23m, 15.000tons, 19.500shp 37km/h, 3x2 305mm, 8x1 190mm from 1904
Vickers Design 152: 141,73pp x 24,23 x 8,38m, 18.450tons, 22.000shp 37km/h, 6x2 305mm, 22x1 76mm, 16x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm, 305mm Belt from 1904

Vickers Design 165: 144,78pp x 24,54 x 7,92m, 18.500tons, 37km/h, 2x2 305mm, 6x2 254mm, 24x1 76mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm, 305mm Belt from 1905
Vickers Design 165A: 138,68pp x 24,54 x 7,92m, 17.500tons, 2x2 305mm, 6x2 254mm, 24x1 76mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm, 305mm Belt from 1905
Vickers Design 165B: 2x2 305mm, 6x2 254mm, 24x1 76mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm, 305mm Belt from 1905

Vickers Design 204: 148,74pp x 26,21 x 7,92m, 19.800tons, 16.000shp 35km/h, 6x2 305mm, 20x1 120mm, 229mm Belt from 1906
Armstrong Design 485: 14.400tons, 2x2 305mm, 6x2 190mm, 229mm Belt from 1906
Armstrong Design 486: 143,26pp x 23,77m, 16.500tons, 17.500dhp, 5x2 305mm, 229mm Belt from 1906

Vickers Design 323: 155,50pp x 28,04 x 8,46m, 24.250tons, 24.500shp 37km/h, 6x3 305mm, 20x1 120mm, 4x1 457mm, 203mm Belt from 1907
Armstrong Design 503: 170,69pp x 25,91 x 8,23m, 23.500tons, 25.000shp 39km/h, 6x3 305mm, 24x1 102mm, 4x1 457mm from 1907
Armstrong Design 504: 152,4pp x 25 x 7,62m, 18.750tons, 20.000shp 37km/h, 2x3,2x2 254mm, 20x1 102mm, 4x1 457mm from 1907
Armstrong Design 509: 176,78pp x 26,21 x 8,23m, 25.000tons, 27.000shp, 4x3,4x2 305mm, 24x1 102mm, 4x1 457mm from 1907

Armstrong Design 538: 161,54pp x 25,3 x 7,92m, 21.500tons, 24.500shp, 4x2 343mm, 12x1 152mm, 8x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 557: 173,74pp x 25,45 x 7,62m, 20.000tons, 24.800shp, 6x2 305mm/45, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 557A: 173,74pp x 25,45 x 7,62m, 21.000tons, 24.800shp, 6x2 305mm/50, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 566: 161,54pp x 25,6 x 7,62m, 21.000tons, 24.500shp, 2x3,4x2 305mm/45, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 566A: 166,12pp x 25,6 x 7,62m, 22.000tons, 24.500shp, 2x3,4x2 305mm/50, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 567: 167,64pp x 25,6 x 7,62m, 22.000tons, 24.500shp, 4x3,2x2 305mm/45, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 567A: 172,21pp x 25,6 x 7,62m, 23.000tons, 24.500shp, 4x3,2x2 305mm/50, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 568: 152,4pp x 25,3 x 7,62m, 18.600tons, 24.500shp, 2x3,2x2 305mm/50, 20x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 3x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 570: 137,16pp x 23,93 x 7,62m, 16.500tons, 20.000shp, 4x2 305mm/50, 20x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 2x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 570A: 137,16pp x 23,93 x 7,62m, 16.500tons, 20.000shp, 4x2 305mm/50, 20x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 2x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 571: 158,5pp x 25,6 x 7,62m, 20.300tons, 24.500shp, 4x2 343mm, 20x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 3x1 457mm from 1908
Armstrong Design 582: 167,64pp x 24,08 x 7,92m, 19.000tons, 41.000shp, 2x3,1x2 305mm/50, 22x1 120mm, 8x1 47mm, 4x1 457mm from 1908

Vickers Design 523: 171,9pp x 182,88wl x 29,26 x 8,38m, 26.000tons, 38.000shp 43km/h, 6x2 343mm, 12x1 152mm, 12x1 102mm, 2x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1911
Vickers Design 524: 185,93pp x 29,26 x 8,53m, 28.950tons, 38.000shp 43km/h, 6x2 356mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 76mm, 6x1 533mm, 279mm Belt from 1911
Armstrong Design 711: No Data likely the Armstrong version of the Vickers design 523 from 1911
Armstrong Design 714: 198,12pp x 209,25oa x 29,26 x 8,7m, 30.000tons, 42.000shp 43km/h, 6x2 356mm, 18x1 152mm, 14x1 76mm, 2x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1911

Armstrong Design 740: 198,12pp x 208,8oa x 29,26 x 9,53m, 31.500tons, 43km/h, 6x2 356mm, from 1912

Vickers Design 646: 184,4pp x 28,65 x 8,7m, 29.000tons, 4x2 406mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1913
Vickers Design 646A: 184,4pp x 28,65 x 8,7m, 29.800tons, 4x2 406mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1913
Vickers Design 647: 188,98pp x 28,65 x 8,7m, 29.500tons, 70.000shp 48km/h, 4x2 406mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1913
Vickers Design 647A: 188,98pp x 28,65 x 8,7m, 30.750tons, 70.000shp 48km/h, 4x2 406mm, 16x1 152mm, 8x1 533mm, 305mm Belt from 1913
Vickers Design 873: 204,22oa x 32 x 9,14m, 35.000tons/39.500tons, 52.000shp 44km/h, 3x3 406mm, 6x2 152mm, 6x1 120mm AA, 4x8 40mm AA 356/381mm Belt, 121/184mm Deck from around 1924

 

[muttly]

Warships for export lists 13 ships built for japan by Armstrong.

 

[Tzoli]

I've forget to include Vickers Design 873, the Vickers modified version of the Nelson class, with more armour no torpedo tubes slightly more speed and slightly differently placed secondary turrets, and no sloped deck around the machinery:

 

[Grey Havoc]

It almost looks like they were aiming at a projected market niche for larger coastal battleships and the like.

 

[Tzoli]

Where did you get this conclusion? As the IJN was never seeking coastal battleships!

 

[muttly]

Did Vickers design the original nelsons?

 

[Tzoli]

No, DNC to be precise Naval Constructor Sir Stanley Vernon Goodall (Who was likely assisted by Edward Lewis Attwood ) designed the N3/G3 series and thus the Nelsons, Vickers designed the turrets and guns.

 

[Dilandu]

less speed

Hm? The blueprint stated 24 knots speed.

 

[Tzoli]

Ahh indeed I've compared it to a different design in my excel

 

[Tzoli]

Vickers offered this design directly to Admiral Yuzuru Hiraga after he visited the UK in the 1920's and likely inspired the 1929 Proto-Yamato design.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Where did you get this conclusion? As the IJN was never seeking coastal battleships!

Indeed, but some of the apparent design features made me wonder was this design originally conceived for such, but was conveniently to hand when the IJN began making inquiries of British shipyards with regards as to their latest requirements. Though as you point out my speculation there was probably way incorrect.

 

[Tzoli]

Well I see Swiftsure, King Edward, Lord Nelson and Nassau Types by armament and likely layout with difference of number of secondary guns.

 

[muttly]

It would seem that it's the same deal as tiger and konga , so to say
a close copy of a ship already in the british navy.

 

[Tzoli]

Actually the Tiger was the copy in this relation not the Kongo

 

[Hood]

It boggles the mind that not long after the haggling at Washington and the growing naval race tensions that Vickers offers a Nelson analogue to the IJN, one wonders what the Admiralty or Foreign Office must have thought?

 

[Tzoli]

Not to the IJN precisly but to Yuzuru Hiraga himself. I will have to search the archive but there is a letter from Vickers where it describes the offered design.

 

[Tzoli]

Here is the mentioned letter dated 1924 June 30th:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 〔vickers社の英国軍艦改造案:"OUTLINE DESCRIPTION OF A BATTLESHIP OF ABOUT 35,000 TONS STANDARD DISPLACEMENT AND 24 KNOTS SPEED.","OUTLINE DESCRIPTION OF A BATTLESHIP OF ABOUT 10,000 TONS STANDARD DISPLACEMENT AND 33.5 KNOTS SPEED."綴〕 · 東京大学学術資産

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

And an earlier letter (from June 5th) describing various Vickers guns and turret data:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · 〔ViCkers Limitedより平賀宛書翰〕 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

Data tables:

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · (A) Particular of Vickers Naval guns (Confidential) 大正十六年六月一日於倫敦 毘社ヨリ要領・平賀造船少将 〔ヴィッカーズ社設計・製造砲の諸元〕 · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

平賀譲デジタルアーカイブ · VICKERS GUNS · 東京大学学術資産等アーカイブズ共用サーバ

iiif.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp

 

[Tzoli]

By the way Vickers was a special case as it has shipyards not just outside the United Kingdom but outside the jurisdiction of the Washington Naval Treaty:
The Spanish Sociedad Española de Construcción Naval commonly known as SECN. The most likely shipyards were at El Ferrol, Bilbao and likely Cartagena.

 

[muttly]

Sorry. had it backwards.

 

[COLDOWN]

About a Mexican-Japanese negotiation (translation):

"Building a squad of builders.
The Mexican government has commissioned the Yokohama Dock shipyards to build a squad of destroyers. These shipyards, which are going through, today, the same crisis that everyone suffers in regard to shipbuilding, have begun the study of the corresponding project. The squad will consist of four units for coastal defense".
Source: Revista General de Marina, Enero, 1931.

Maybe something more powerful than the "G20 patrol gunboats (1935-1936)"?

A little offtopic, sorry

 

[Dilandu]

The Mexican government has commissioned the Yokohama Dock shipyards to build a squad of destroyers. These shipyards, which are going through, today, the same crisis that everyone suffers in regard to shipbuilding, have begun the study of the corresponding project. The squad will consist of four units for coastal defense".

Hm.



Since "coastal defense" is mentioned, I suppose, it was something among the line of torpedo boat (the big one, not the motor ones). I suppose, Mexico may be interested in something under 500-ton, armed with 2-3 guns (4-inch or 5-inch size) and a pair or two of torpedo tubes.

 

[Tzoli]

I'm thinking of Export versions of the Chidori class (IJN Tomozuru was part of this class) and they are from the same era.
As the Japanese export designs for China were found in the Chinese archives maybe these designs could be stored in Mexico somewhere?

 

[Dilandu]

I'm thinking of Export versions of the Chidori class (IJN Tomozuru was part of this class) and they are from the same era.

Yep, I suppose they may looks quite like post-refit Chidori-class. Japanese most likely would not sell its modern (and secret) tech, but 12-cm/45 Year 3 guns and 533-cm torpedoes would suit perfectly.

 

[tallguy]

Anyone know of a source from renderings of Vickers design 472(12" Battlecruiser for Japan)

 

[tallguy]

Sorry source of

 

[Tzoli]

Anyone know of a source from renderings of Vickers design 472(12" Battlecruiser for Japan)

I've not yet drawed it.

 

[tallguy]

Anyone know of a source from renderings of Vickers design 472(12" Battlecruiser for Japan)

I've not yet drawed it.

Please do!

 

[David Chessum]

It boggles the mind that not long after the haggling at Washington and the growing naval race tensions that Vickers offers a Nelson analogue to the IJN, one wonders what the Admiralty or Foreign Office must have thought?

There wasn't that much haggling between the British and the Japanese at Washington - they went in as allies, and came out as friends. Relations were good in the early 20s, and Britain was still exporting a lot of advanced naval items to Japan (as well as the unofficial Sempill mission).
Most of the haggling was between the US and the Japanese, the US and the English, and the French with pretty much everyone.

Regards

David