Foreign F22s

[uk 75]

The end of the Cold War meant that the USAF was the only customer for a much smaller number of F22s.
But the F15 had been sold to Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia early on in its career.
Might the same have happened to the F22?

 

[fightingirish]

Going down memory lane...
As a teenager 25 years ago, I "flew" the F-22 in the USAF, the Saudi Arabian Royal Air Force, Egyptian Air Force and in the Ethiopian Air Force.

F-22: Air Dominance Fighter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

F-22 Total Air War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But in a more realistic alternative world, the countries Japan, Israel, South Korea, Australia, UK, and Saudi Arabia might have obtained the F-22. Maybe the USAF and Lockhead would have then invested in an upgrade version, adding new avionics, new weapons etc..
IMHO the "F-22C" might have been based on the "FB-22-1 Strike Raptor" concept.

 

[Fluff]

Maybe an export model, and like Tesla, the full capabilities would only be turned on by USA in a shooting war.

 

[SSgtC]

Had the US been open to exporting the design, the UK and Canada could probably have bought if they wanted it. The same goes for Germany. As for actual operators? The US, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Singapore (maybe), Saudi Arabia (again, maybe). Other NATO nations may be offered the type if they ask, but I doubt any actually buy it

 

[starviking]

Japan really wanted the F-22, so if there’s no export block the JASDF is probably flying them right now.

 

[helmutkohl]

Japan would have been the most likely for an export model of the F-22
they really wanted it, and it would give a direct successor to the F-15 in terms of capabilities
I would expect Japan to modify it to pair it with AAM-4, etc and maybe even give it AShM capabilities

(likely they would have gone for the same low res grey scheme as the US, just with a different insignia).

question is.. had Japan was received earlier..
would they still get the F-35? I would say yes
but there's also the possibility that instead of the current large fighter they are trying to develop now..
they may instead opt to design a smaller 5th gen jet instead, perhaps built around one of the F-22's engine


Israel would be the 2nd likeliest. but I cant see the Saudis getting it yet.

 

[uk 75]

This old thread seems relevant now that UK, Japan, Italy and possibly Sweden are going to build a new generation combat aircraft.

Back in the 1960s the US sold F4 Phantoms to Germany, Israel, Japan, Korea and the UK amongst others

Its sucessor, the F15 was so expensive that only Israel, Japan (and Saudi Arabia) could replace with them. Korea did much later.

By the time the F22 came into service the Cold War was over and the US would not share it even with Japan.

In 2022 the new F4 is the F35 which is available and being bought by similar users.

If there is a successor to the F22 will it be purely for the USAF?

This thread has offered glimpses of what might have been if the F22 had been made available to allies.

There seems little doubt that Israeli and Japanese F22s would be iin service.

Beyond that it is harder to say. South Korea possibly.

Typhoon and Rafale offered Europe cheaper if less capable substitutes.
Might Germany have been tempted to replace their modernised ICE F4s with F22 in the 90s when they were disenchanted with Britain and Typhoon?

 

[kaiserd]

Given the Japanese decision to go with the UK and Italy in this new project (instead of the US), in a major change of direction for Japan re: their long term defence and industrial development policies, it appears that even the closest US allies aren’t really being let near the next generation US fighter and its technology (F-22 replacement but likely rather more than that).

If Japan had an equivalent deal from the US on the table they wouldn’t have gone with the UK and Italy option. The US offer must have been significantly inferior from a Japanese perspective. In that context I would doubt that even the likes of the UK, Canada and Australia will have any access/ offers anytime soon. Appears it’s F-35s or bust for the moment re: 5 generation or greater product offerings from the US to its allies.

There is a wider point about if this apparent US position (apparently forcing Japan to find new partners) is part of wider ongoing US policy evolution under administrations of both US parties. Some will fear an overly protectionist position re: technology sharing even with very close allies, others may fear an even darker paranoid and xenophobic-tinged “America First” evolution of positions driving decisions.

The apparent difference between the position taken re: Japan and its future fighter and taken re: Australia re: AUKUS and nuclear subs is, at least for the moment, very noticeable but hopefully will prove to be more apparent than real (e.g. Japanese and other allies access to AUKUS equivalent status and partnership with the US).

 

[uk 75]

In defence of the US attitude to F22 and its possible successor we are talking about hugely expensive investment by the US at a level only it can do.

Security concerns will also play a part. The best way of keeping a secret is not to share it.

Given the lack of large numbers of Russian or Chinese aircraft able to match late batch F16 and F18 let alone F35 I can understand the US logic.

Is it better for us to have this capability from a close ally or not have it at all?

 

[helmutkohl]

Given the Japanese decision to go with the UK and Italy in this new project (instead of the US), in a major change of direction for Japan re: their long term defence and industrial development policies, it appears that even the closest US allies aren’t really being let near the next generation US fighter and its technology (F-22 replacement but likely rather more than that).

If Japan had an equivalent deal from the US on the table they wouldn’t have gone with the UK and Italy option. The US offer must have been significantly inferior from a Japanese perspective. In that context I would doubt that even the likes of the UK, Canada and Australia will have any access/ offers anytime soon. Appears it’s F-35s or bust for the moment re: 5 generation or greater product offerings from the US to its allies.

There is a wider point about if this apparent US position (apparently forcing Japan to find new partners) is part of wider ongoing US policy evolution under administrations of both US parties. Some will fear an overly protectionist position re: technology sharing even with very close allies, others may fear an even darker paranoid and xenophobic-tinged “America First” evolution of positions driving decisions.

The apparent difference between the position taken re: Japan and its future fighter and taken re: Australia re: AUKUS and nuclear subs is, at least for the moment, very noticeable but hopefully will prove to be more apparent than real (e.g. Japanese and other allies access to AUKUS equivalent status and partnership with the US).

the US offer was basically an F-22/F-35 hybrid
it probably would not have contributed much to Japan's own industry growth, in the way the F-2 was

on a related note, theres also the issue of the decline of the Japanese military industrial complex too, with many components manufacturers leaving security and focusing on civilian applications.