Foo-fighters

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Hi all,



Recently joined I'm interested in WW2 German secret or advanced weapons and aircraft. Have read abit about Foo-fighters spotted by both sides during WW2, but wondered if these were simply advanced AAA weapons?

Any links to info would be great.

Cheers
 
There's another thread on this topic, IIRC.

FWIW, my suspicion is that these were, literally, weather balloons...

My logic: How do you establish 'windage' between ground guns and bomber stream ? RADAR only gives target altitude and speed...

So, you gotta launch balloon 'sondes', small weather balloons with an attached flare for tracking. Think 'Chinese flying lantern'. A pair or trio of theodolite-style spotters record angle vs time, cross-matching 3D geometry gives prompt correction for gun-laying off-sets...

Also, they do not need accurate temperature / humidity profile etc, so the balloon may rise a lot faster than when carrying a weather-forecasting rig...
 
There's another thread on this topic, IIRC.



FWIW, my suspicion is that these were, literally, weather balloons...



My logic: How do you establish 'windage' between ground guns and bomber stream ? RADAR only gives target altitude and speed...



So, you gotta launch balloon 'sondes', small weather balloons with an attached flare for tracking. Think 'Chinese flying lantern'. A pair or trio of theodolite-style spotters record angle vs time, cross-matching 3D geometry gives prompt correction for gun-laying off-sets...



Also, they do not need accurate temperature / humidity profile etc, so the balloon may rise a lot faster than when carrying a weather-forecasting rig...

Agreed. A very interesting point.
 
I have seen an unpublished photo of a balloon with attachment points that had short, radio-type antennas. I recall it was Dynamit AG that came up with a balloon skin that was thicker and would not burst. In 1935, Telefunken AG filed a patent for a Radio Signaling Apparatus. I propose that the Foo Fighters were balloons with an internal lamp which could be a number of colors. The outer skin carried a negative charge and the balloons could be steered in flight using microwaves from the various radars in use. One American pilot was convinced that these devices were sent up to improve the accuracy of flak.
 
I have seen an unpublished photo of a balloon with attachment points that had short, radio-type antennas. I recall it was Dynamit AG that came up with a balloon skin that was thicker and would not burst. In 1935, Telefunken AG filed a patent for a Radio Signaling Apparatus. I propose that the Foo Fighters were balloons with an internal lamp which could be a number of colors. The outer skin carried a negative charge and the balloons could be steered in flight using microwaves from the various radars in use. One American pilot was convinced that these devices were sent up to improve the accuracy of flak.

That's quite interesting.



Cheers.
 
I wonder if wingtip vortex shedding, condensation, and St. Elmo’s fire might be producing something close to ball lightning that still wants to be attracted to the airframe…like an electric remora.

Were pilots of certain airframes with certain wingtips more likely to see them than pilots of other planes?

The engine, wingtips and all may have interacted just so…the humidity, charge…temperature may all have had to be within a certain range to see something that…just perhaps…was always there…that might explain why they always seemed to be off to the side in a certain position.

Were they more likely to have been seen by leaky aircraft with billet holes nearby—-or after a fuel depot had been struck with the barest trace of naphtha becoming entrained?

Wingtip foxfire.

That makes for a nice call-sign.

Maybe some balloons had “whiskers” hoping they could be similarly entrained?

I think vortices might explain a lot either way.
 
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Recently joined I'm interested in WW2 German secret or advanced weapons and aircraft. Have read abit about Foo-fighters spotted by both sides during WW2, but wondered if these were simply advanced AAA weapons
German AA weapon wasn't exactly advanced, and their SAM program was in state of utter chaos, with resources disperced among the five parallel programs, and very little attention paid to guidance.
 
The outer skin carried a negative charge and the balloons could be steered in flight using microwaves from the various radars in use.
Er... exactly how? Inverse square law kinda frown on the idea of trying to move something as massive as baloon by bombarding it with microwave radiation of pathetic kilowatt scale. Not to mention, that German radars weren't microwave. Germans started to experiment with microwaves late during the war, but their efforts were clumsy, and they seems to not grasp the theory of short waves at all.

The more realistic idea may be that baloons with dipoles (and lamps for visual tracking) may be launched by Germans in attempt to improve the accuracy of their clumsy gun-laying radars, and maybe "burn" through chaffs and jamming (by using baloon with strong return signal as reference point in the sky, so they could visually verify that radar is tracking correctly).
 
Here are some ideas about the subject
 

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By the end of 1943 the Mosquito NF.II of the 100 Group started to perform ‘Mahmoud’ missions escorting the bomber stream up to Berlin. They had an AI Mk IV radar that worked either in frontal search or in tail warning mode and was already superior to the Lichtenstein, an advantage that only increased along the rest of the war.

German casualties grew by the day, making it necessary to install Lichtenstein SN-2d or Neptun-R tail warning radar. This radar had serious difficulties to detect the Mosquito at medium range, due to its wood airframe.

The British bombers also started using the ‘Monica’ tail warning radar since the summer of 1943. When the presence of an aggressor was detected, pilots made a brusque turn or corkscrew to break contact and escape, in the case of bombers, or positioned himself behind the attacker, in the case of the fighters. In this type of fighting in the darkness, the advantage was on the side of the radar with wider angle. For this reason, some Bf 110 and Ju 88 carried additional antennae for the ‘Flensburg’ passive receiver in the wings. In 1945 both sides already used steerable parabolic antennae.

The ‘Neptun’ series of radars was designed to replace the ‘Lichtenstein’ that in 1944 already were neither immune to the new ‘Window’ nor to the British electronic countermeasures. But they still had detection problems at a range below 300 m due to the returned echo.

Shorter centimetric wavelengths would solve many of these issues, because they could be accurately focused and directed by a reflector small enough to be carried internally.

In August 1942 the Germans believed that the equipment able to operate on centimetric wavelengths could not be achieved until 1944. In December 1942 the Mosquito made the first accurate attack with the ‘Oboe’ system (an application of their IFF) although little afterwards the Germans could interfere it emitting on 1.25 m.

On 15 January 1943 the Technical Service of the Luftwaffe concluded that the centimetric wavelengths did not represent a military advantage that justified the effort to obtain them. That would have meant to retire all the available radio technicians from the war front, modify the production lines to manufacture new types of radio lamps, obtain bigger quantities of wolfram from the allied countries and delay the series production of the ‘Neptun’.

On 2 February a Stirling bomber of the Pathfinder Force, that marked targets for an incursion against Hamburg, was shot down by the flak over Rotterdam. The examination of the wreck showed that part of its electronic equipment operated on 9 cm wavelength…..it was one of the first H2S cartographic radars that could be recovered almost intact, as the self-destruction mechanism did not work.

It was based on the cavity magnetron technology, a casual discovery made by J.T. Randall and A. H. Boot in 1940. When the German technicians could make it work they were astonished by the quality of the images received through its small parabolic mirror. Geographical features or even the shape of ships and airplanes could be clearly distinguished at a time when the Lichtenstein SN-2 still operated on 3.30 m.

The German systems of manufacturing still took some time to adapt to the new technology and the overloaded electronic industry was only able to produce ten copies, denominated Berlin N-1, before the end of the war in Europe.

Meanwhile the Allied had been able to break the balance on their favour. The U-Boats were located and destroyed in the darkness, without any reaction from its ‘Metox’ to the 9 cm. emissions. When the new ‘Naxos’ were installed, the Allies started to emit on 3 cm and the slaughtering went on. In the air, the ‘Lichtenstein’ were positioned by the ‘Serrate’ devices of the Beaufighter and Mosquito and the German IFF was interfered by the ‘Perfectos’ system.

The ‘Oboe’ incursions resumed with the help of the 9 cm transmissions, impossible to interfere with the German equipment of the time. On 24 July 1943 the Bomber Command performed a mass attack on the heart of the Reich, using ‘Windows’, interference equipments installed in the aircrafts, electronic decoys and long range escort fighters Mosquito N.F. XII and N.F. XIII. The latest was equipped with nitrous-oxyde boost that also used successfully to catch the Fw 190 and Me 410 night intruders during the Steinbock Operation.

In May 1944 the new N.F. XIX received authorization to perform missions of free fighting over Germany, trying to attract the enemy night fighters with ‘Monica’ radar emissions, feigning to be a bomber. By the beginning of 1945, the N.F.30 came into operation with engines equipped with exhaust shrouds, designed for minimum IR emission and almost invisible in darkness. They were fast enough to hunt the Me 262 B-1a/U1 and the Fi 103 flying bombs.

Germany lost the initiative and was forced to adopt a survivor strategy based on antiradar techniques and equipments.

The old ‘Matratzen’ and ‘Hirschgeweith’ antennae were replaced by swivelling mountings ‘Panorama’ and parabolic mirrors ‘Parabolspiegel’.
Every detecting equipment was improved adding filters, Doppler devices, frequency switching devices - ’Bernhard ‘Eidechse’ ‘Feuerzange’ ‘Goldhammer’ ‘K-Laus’ ‘Kurmark’ ‘Laus’ ‘Mosaik’ ‘Nürnberg’ ‘Nürnburg’ ‘Reiss-Laus’ ‘Riese-Gustav’ ‘Schliebelaus’ ‘Stendal’ ‘Tastlaus’ ‘Taunus’ ‘Urechse’ ‘Wismar’ ‘Würzlaus’ - named ‘Flammen’ and complementary infra-red detectors and sound locators.

The airplanes and missiles were equipped with passive receivers of the emissions of Allied radars of the types ‘Naxos’, ‘Fishpond’, ‘Kleine Heidelberg’ ‘Postklystron’ and ‘Radieschen’. The U-Boats and surface vessels of the Kriegsmarine received the naval versions from these devices named ‘Metox’ ‘Bali’ ‘Cypern’ ‘Palau’ ‘Sumatra’ and ‘Timor’. To jam the radars of the Allied, aluminium bands similar to the ‘Window’ British system (named by the German ‘Düppelstreifen’) were also used. Besides being launched from bombers in the classic way, launch rockets of 86 mm (similar to the current Chaff) were designed for the Kriegsmarine under the name Spgr.L/4.8 ‘Kurhessen’. They surrounded the ship in a cloud of metallic strips when detected by enemy radar. The U-Boats used the ‘Aphrodite IV’ system (Fu MT1) since June 1943. They were radar decoy balloons coated with metallic painting that floated a few meters above the water surface anchored to a floating plate, producing a strong radar echo similar to that of the U-boat conning tower on British radar screens.

Another antiradar technique ‘Netzhemd absortion durch’ was the manufacturing of radar-absorbent materials (RAM). The first practical application consisted of coating the U-Boat snorkels with a special compound of rubber and carbon named ‘Sumpf’ that almost obliterated the radar profile. Its use was started in May 1944, with a plastic ‘Zelligelit’ coating against water and pressure effects.

Coatings ‘Tarnmatte’ and ‘Wesch’ were developed shortly afterwards for other parts of the submarine, like the deck and conning tower. The first one was a thick sheet of ‘Buna’ synthetic rubber that contained iron oxide powder used against the 9.7 cm wavelength of the H2S British radar. The second one was a carbonyl iron powder loaded rubber sheet, about 7.62 mm thick, with a resonant frequency at 3 GHz. The rest of the submarine hull was covered with ‘Alberich’ anechoic coating, 4 mm thick rubber called ‘Oppanol’ against the ASDIC sonar pulses.

There also existed an antiradar painting for airplanes, the ‘Schornsteinfeger’ developed in the BHF (Hochfrequenzinstitut) of Travemünde. A radar camouflage material consisting of a thick bituminous paint heavily loaded with carbon. When applied in thickness carefully calculated in relation to the radar frequency the arriving signal would be trapped within the dielectric material and its return energy damped out and transformed itself in heat. The painting was more efficient if applied over non-metallic structures predecessors of the current composite materials.

The most efficient device was the ‘IG-Jaumann’ developed by IG Farben. It consisted of 8 cm thick panels formed by 7 layers of conductive material plastic/carbon separated by layers of di-electric ‘Igelit’ polyvinylchloride. It was used against the wavelengths between 2 and 50 cm effectively reducing the reflectivity of -20dB over 2.15 GHz. However, it could only be manufactured in curved or straight panels, which made its use on aircrafts very difficult.
 
"accidental wave guides"?
IMHO, you'd need a lot more incident power to spawn such phenomena. Look at the many attempts to re-create 'Ball Lightning' in reproducible ways...
 
For those who read French, there was an interesting article on this subject in the last AeroJournal, which I think summarizes the subject well.
 
I have seen a photo published in a newspaper, not to hand, that shows two balls of fire coming up to meet some American bombers on their way to bomb targets in Japan.
 
First World War RFC pilots requently reported that the Germans were firing "flaming onions" at them. These are now thought to have been 37-mm tracer shells fired from smooth-bore, Gatling-like Hotchkiss guns and Maxim pom-poms. Neither was an exotic technology in '14-'18--both guns were already pretty much obsolete in fact. But when seen by an aviator with a lot on his mind, they seemed inexplicable.

I expect this was somehing similar--anything from a remote burining aircraft to nearby tracer or parachute flares.
 
I disagree. The Germans were occasionally firing experimental flak shells as well. Trained pilots, and members of bomber crews knew what to look for. They watched the other bombers in their formation get hit and go down. I doubt they mistook that for a mid-air ball of light. Exploding flak shells always looked like exploding flak shells. If they were indeed seeing things that weren't there or misidentifying things, they should have been relieved of duty. There is no evidence that this happened. And I'm sure the crews that returned talked about what they saw among themselves.
 
There are no confirmed or documented uses of German SAM's versus live targets
And no sources indicate that any German SAM was developed to the point of such firing being even possible.
It might--MIGHT--have been possible to do such a test with the Hs 117 Schmetterling. This system was set up for use with optical fire controls using the Kehl-Strassburg MCLOS system to control it. I think the Germans, had they tried this, would have found the system completely inadequate for guiding even a subsonic SAM to its target.
 
It might--MIGHT--have been possible to do such a test with the Hs 117 Schmetterling. This system was set up for use with optical fire controls using the Kehl-Strassburg MCLOS system to control it.
There are actually indications, that Hs.117 may be a stolen Italian project (DAAC Campini), and with the Italy out of the war by 1943, Germans were unable to figure out the control system themselves. The missile itself was solid and in good state of development, but American and Russian sources about it indicate serious problems with radio guidance.

I think the Germans, had they tried this, would have found the system completely inadequate for guiding even a subsonic SAM to its target.
Agree completely; it was developed (presumably, by French) for glide bomb control - never for high-velocity interceptions. It simply wasn't sensitive and fast-reacting enough. Also, by 1944, it was completely compromized, so making a SAM to use it would be an exercise in futility.
 
It might--MIGHT--have been possible to do such a test with the Hs 117 Schmetterling. This system was set up for use with optical fire controls using the Kehl-Strassburg MCLOS system to control it.
There are actually indications, that Hs.117 may be a stolen Italian project (DAAC Campini), and with the Italy out of the war by 1943, Germans were unable to figure out the control system themselves. The missile itself was solid and in good state of development, but American and Russian sources about it indicate serious problems with radio guidance.

I think the Germans, had they tried this, would have found the system completely inadequate for guiding even a subsonic SAM to its target.
Agree completely; it was developed (presumably, by French) for glide bomb control - never for high-velocity interceptions. It simply wasn't sensitive and fast-reacting enough. Also, by 1944, it was completely compromized, so making a SAM to use it would be an exercise in futility.
Couldn't have been. Henschel originally proposed the Hs 117 system in late 1941 about the same time they started the Hs 293 anti-ship missile. The design was a derivative of that missle using many of the same components, down to the same guidance system--at least initially. This was the optical system codenamed Burgund. This was to be replaced eventually by a radar input MCLOS system called Brabant using the Kogge-Brigg control system that operated at higher frequency than Keil-Strassburg. Brabant was to have the tracking radars (to be Würtzburg for tracking the target, Mannheim to track the missile) linked through a system called Ruse that would display the two on a CRT and allow the operator to steer the missile by joystick to the target.

These German MCLOS systems were tried out postwar by both the French and Russians and found utterly useless in controlling a missile to a successful intercept. The Germans had at least recognized this during the war too, but they lacked the resources to do much more than propose using an analog computer system like Aufsatz or Einlenk to replace the use of MCLOS with an electronic command system that would automatically guide the missile to its target.

Burgund as a system used, essentially, the same optics and fire controls as a flak battery did. A 4-meter Flak EM 34 -36 rangefinder and a Flak folge gerät gave the range, altitude, bearing, course, and speed of the target just as they would in a gun flak battery. These fed into a kommandogerät that calculated the parallax and necessary course for the missile. This was then sent to a device codenamed Bodo where the output was translated and displayed on a CRT. The operator then used his Kehl or Kogge joystick MCLOS transmitter to send the guidance signals to the missile that had a Strassburg or Brigg receiver on it.

I can't find any actual testing of the Hs 117 using this system on a live target, and it appears that in test firings it was limited to just testing the controls to get the missile to maneuver as proof of concept. The Germans had several different transmit-receive systems they could have used. These were mostly changes in frequency of the modulation signal and the frequency of the control signal using FM or AM (mostly AM) as an attempt to get around Allied jamming.
 
There are actually indications, that Hs.117 may be a stolen Italian project (DAAC Campini), and with the Italy out of the war by 1943, Germans were unable to figure out the control system themselves. The missile itself was solid and in good state of development, but American and Russian sources about it indicate serious problems with radio guidance.


Agree completely; it was developed (presumably, by French) for glide bomb control - never for high-velocity interceptions. It simply wasn't sensitive and fast-reacting enough. Also, by 1944, it was completely compromized, so making a SAM to use it would be an exercise in futility.
Hs 117 also had an issue with asymmetric thrust from the two booster units. This was not uncommon where a missile used multiple boosters. The fuel would burn at slightly different rates and could cause induced spin on the missile. The US solved this by generally going to a single inline booster, other countries solved it (like the UK) using better internal stability controls that auto-corrected irregular spin using flight surfaces.
 
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