Flakpanzer Gepard upgrades

[Voltzz]

Im looking for the upgrade proposals made for the Gepard SPAAG either before it was phased out in Bundeswehr service in 2012 or for the various export attempts (Chile, Saudi Arabia...). Sadly i dont have access to a good book on the Gepards history, so my contribution will be mostly limited to the few pictures one can find online. Hope someone more knowledgeable can help out.

 

[Voltzz]

Gepard Stinger integration by KMW:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271077220384215041

View: https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1271077220384215041

https://twitter.com/x/status/1238557190417498120

View: https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1238557190417498120

https://twitter.com/x/status/1358467898960982016

View: https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1358467898960982016

 

[Voltzz]

New optics/FLIR:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1358472269006336002

View: https://twitter.com/gepardtatze/status/1358472269006336002#m
EDIT: as the description of the video in the post below points out, this is a PUMA IFVs gunner sight (EOTS II)

 

[Voltzz]

A video that shows both new optics and the stinger integration

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax2HOYHKKMI

This movie shows a SPAAG GEPARD tracking a Banshee drone with a modified PUMA thermal weapon sight device (KMW trials 2008 at ADA Life Firing Range in Todendorf/Germany). At least the neighbor weapon system destroyed the drone with a STINGER missile. Kill-distance (German "ENTF" = Distance) round about 5300 meters.

 

[Voltzz]

GIAT photo-montage(?) of a Gepard turret on a Leclerc hull with Mistral(?) missiles

 

[Voltzz]

There was also an upgraded variant offered by Contraves called "ATAK 35" on which i can find very little information.
(first image: brochure on sale here)

Contraves also became known in the 1970s for the German Bundeswehr's Gepard 35-mm anti-aircraft tank. It was the main contractor for the weapon turret of the flak tank, of which a total of 420 were supplied to the German armed forces, 120 to the Dutch armed forces and 40 to the Belgian armed forces.
The further development ATAK 35 differs mainly in its more extensive use of digital technology.

Source
(second image: contraves ad here)

 

[Apophenia]

There was also an upgraded variant offered by Contraves called "ATAK 35" on which i can find very little information...

From Chris Chant's blog:

"As one of the prime movers in the 5PFZ programme from its infancy, Contraves took great interest in the development of this extremely capable heavyweight battlefield air defence system, and also produced an updated version, the Contraves ATAK-35 self-propelled 35-mm twin AA gun system, matched to the anticipated battlefield threat of the 1990s. The prototype was developed on the chassis of the OTO Melara OF-40 main battle tank, so stressing the export potential of the concept, but the primary operational features of the system were matched to high-technology threats of the type that would be encountered in a European war, and the turret could be installed on tank chassis such as those of the Ml Abrams and the Leopard 1 and 2.

The armament, radar and optical tracking systems of the 5PFZ [maker's designation for Gepard] were retained in the new system, but were integrated with a new Contraves fire-control system to provide a number of tactical advantages. This was based on a Contraves digital computer and a programmable, rather than hard-wired, system logic unit. The results included markedly reduced reaction time; higher hit probability, especially against low-level manoeuvring fixed-wing and low-level rotary-wing targets; reduced crew workload; greater reliability and maintainability; and considerable growth potential. Other new features allowed the cannon to fire the new generation of Oerlikon-Bührle 35-mm ammunition, and reduced ammunition reloading time."

-- https://cmchant.com/krauss-maffei-contraves-5pfz-b2-gepard/

 

[Voltzz]

Under the project designation AT AK 35, the Swiss company Contraves carried out a performance upgrade for the FlakPz GEPARD's 35 mm flak weapon system with the use of a faster-working digital computer and improved radar equipment. This project was technically realized in 1984 on the chassis of the Italian export tank OF 40. Externally similar to the Dutch FlakPz CA 1, this vehicle bears the designation "FlakPz ATAK 35".

Source

 

[Apophenia]

From: Jane's Main Battle Tanks, Second edition , Christopher F. Foss , 1986

[Under Leopard 1]
"ATAK 35

As a private venture, the Swiss company of Contraves has
upgraded a Dutch CA 1 to ATAK 35 configuration, although
this turret can be installed on other chassis. This version has
much improved electronics and has been demonstrated in
West Germany and Austria." ...

[Under OTO Melara]
"35 mm Self-propelled Anti-aircraft Gun

For trials purposes a Palmaria chassis has been fitted with the
ATAK twin 35 mm anti-aircraft turret designed as a private
venture by Contraves."

-- https://archive.org/stream/JanesMBT2ed/Janes MBT 2ed_djvu.txt

 

[Voltzz]

was developed on the chassis of the OTO Melara OF-40

i was wondering why this project was under the Contraves branch of Oerlikon. First i thought Contraves specializing in electronics was the reason, but if this was targeted at the Italian army, Contraves with their large footprint in Italy would make sense.

 

[Voltzz]

-- https://archive.org/stream/JanesMBT2ed/Janes MBT 2ed_djvu.txt

picture from the same source this time on a Leopard 1 chassis

 

[Voltzz]

Seems like it was also offered to Canada
Source

 

[Voltzz]

-- https://cmchant.com/krauss-maffei-contraves-5pfz-b2-gepard/

from the same source:

The GDP-C02 turret was also trialled in other tracked chassis, most notably the Swiss Pz 68, the British Vickers Mk 3 and Mk 7, and the Italian OTO Melara OF-40. The turret could also have been installed on the chassis of the West German Leopard 2, and considerable interest in this combination was at one time shown by Saudi Arabia.

(to avoid confusion: this is about the base Gepard turret, not the ATAK)

 

[Apophenia]

i was wondering why this project was under the Contraves branch of Oerlikon. First i thought Contraves specializing in electronics was the reason, but if this was targeted at the Italian army, Contraves with their large footprint in Italy would make sense.

From the start, Contraves was prime contractor on the 5PFZ-A (and later 5PFZ-B) proposals which led to the West German/Belgian and Dutch Gepards, respectively.

I too noted Chant's mention of the Oerlikon-Bührle GDP-C02 turret fitting the Leopard 2 (makes sense, the Leo 1 and 2 having the same turret ring diameter)

 

[Voltzz]

From the start, Contraves was prime contractor on the 5PFZ-A (and later 5PFZ-B) proposals which led to the West German/Belgian and Dutch Gepards, respectively.

thanks, that makes sense

AIR COMBAT V17 N3 and Jane´s Defense Weekly 13 Oct 1984 are also supposed to have content about ATAK, if anyone has access to those

 

[Pioneer]

I'm hoping that the Russian-Ukrainian War will be a wakeup call to Western Armies to the versatility of not just gun-based AAA, but also that of the SPAAG's, which they have chosen to neglect.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[GTX]

I'm hoping that the Russian-Ukrainian War will be a wakeup call to Western Armies to the versatility of not just gun-based AAA, but also that of the SPAAG's, which they have chosen to neglect.

I am not sure they have totally neglected. It's just that the threat hasn't been seen to be there as much. That said, even in Ukraine, I believe the use of such weapons is more focussed towards drones and missiles thus something more akin to C-RAM systems is the focal area.

 

[Pioneer]

I'm hoping that the Russian-Ukrainian War will be a wakeup call to Western Armies to the versatility of not just gun-based AAA, but also that of the SPAAG's, which they have chosen to neglect.

I am not sure they have totally neglected. It's just that the threat hasn't been seen to be there as much. That said, even in Ukraine, I believe the use of such weapons is more focussed towards drones and missiles thus something more akin to C-RAM systems is the focal area.

Well, I'm also thinking that the Russian-Ukrainian War will undoubtedly also reiterate the importance and effectiveness of the AAA gun in the secondary ground fire support and suppression role mate.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[dan_inbox]

I'm also thinking that the Russian-Ukrainian War will undoubtedly also reiterate the importance and effectiveness of the AAA gun in the secondary ground fire support and suppression role

Is there any video evidence of SPAAGs being used in ground support?
I'd think that on the UA side they are too valuable in their primary mission to endenger recklessly as IFVs, which seem to have a very short life expectancy.
And, contrary to the invaders, so far the Ukrainians have been rather smart in deploying their assets.

 

[Voltzz]

Well, I'm also thinking that the Russian-Ukrainian War will undoubtedly also reiterate the importance and effectiveness of the AAA gun in the secondary ground fire support and suppression role mate.

That sound like a very bad idea to do with a SPAAG that cost more than 3 MBTs and is only lightly armored

 

[Voltzz]

In the 90s it was planned to fit both the Gepard and Roland with multispectral smoke launchers by Buck neue Technologien gmbh.

 

[Pioneer]

In all due respect dan_inbox & Voltzz, I said AAA and not SPAAG's!
Saying this, since the Second World War, SPAAG have and I dare say will continue to be utilised in the ground fire support and suppression role where tactical necessity dictates.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[dan_inbox]

AAA yes, of course. The technicals in Syria/Iraq/Africa/etc are full of ZU-23s.

SPAAG, not so much. Last serious use I remember was IDF employing M163s to flush out terr snipers from the upper levels of high-rise buildings in places like Jenin. IDF had only APCs then, not real IFVs. Since, they have mounted 30mm cannons on just about everything, and the M163s have been retired.

A key point is that SPAAGs are far less protected than IFVs, and much more expensive, like Voltzz wrote.

 

[Pioneer]

In all due respect dan_inbox & Voltzz, I said AAA and not SPAAG's!
Saying this, since the Second World War, SPAAG have and I dare say will continue to be utilised in the ground fire support and suppression role where tactical necessity dictates.

Regards
Pioneer

The Bundeswehr has already shipped 30 Cheetah systems to Ukraine. Criticizing the ammunition sent for this system to Kyiv, Kiesewetter said, “The Cheetah has proven itself in action and was often used very efficiently at the beginning to combat ground targets.”

(Source: https://eurasiantimes.com/buy-back-...craft-guns-from-qatar-divert-them-to-ukraine/ )

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Voltzz]

New optics/FLIR:

I think this optic or an earlier version of it is also shown in this image, showing the planned upgrades for the German gepards. Only some of these upgrades were realized in the late 90s.

 

[Voltzz]

I think this optic or an earlier version of it is also shown in this image, showing the planned upgrades for the German gepards. Only some of these upgrades were realized in the late 90s.

I was wrong, its not the same optic.
I found an article here with a picture of the 'optical sensor' from the GEPARD 2 upgrade program.
It was developed by Zeiss and contained stabilized daylight and IR cameras and a laser range finder.
The sensor in the 3rd post of this thread seems to be a modified thermal gunners sight from the PUMA IFV

 

[Scott Kenny]

In all due respect dan_inbox & Voltzz, I said AAA and not SPAAG's!
Saying this, since the Second World War, SPAAG have and I dare say will continue to be utilised in the ground fire support and suppression role where tactical necessity dictates.

Regards
Pioneer

Towed AAA is just about worthless, range is too short to keep up with modern rates of advance. Any new AAA systems need to be mounted on a mobile chassis.

As many spare tanks as the US has, I'm kinda waiting to hear that the old M1-no-suffix are getting a Gepard or Marksman turret dropped onto them, plus Stingers and AIM-9s, to use as heavy SHORAD.

 

[Newtonk]

Any "spare" tanks the US has and not being given to Ukraine, that is. Any surplus hull would suffice (almost). There must be some old Bradley chassis somewhere?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Any "spare" tanks the US has and not being given to Ukraine, that is. Any surplus hull would suffice (almost). There must be some old Bradley chassis somewhere?

I think that the Gepard turret is too heavy for a Bradley.

 

[Pioneer]

I think that the Gepard turret is too heavy for a Bradley.

Agree

Regards
Pioneer

 

[madhon]

Any "spare" tanks the US has and not being given to Ukraine, that is. Any surplus hull would suffice (almost). There must be some old Bradley chassis somewhere?

Isn't there a few thousand M1 hulls in storage at Sierra Army Depot that could be used instead of bradleys ?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Isn't there a few thousand M1 hulls in storage at Sierra Army Depot that could be used instead of bradleys ?

yeah, something like 6000 or so spare Abrams hulls.

 

[Newtonk]

6000 hulls... That is phenomenal, I look at how the Israelis have repurposed hulls, saving money in the process, and wonder why America cannot do the same.

 

[Scott Kenny]

6000 hulls... That is phenomenal, I look at how the Israelis have repurposed hulls, saving money in the process, and wonder why America cannot do the same.View attachment 704194

A lot of that is actually war reserve, assuming that the Cold War went hot, or that the Ukraine war will expand to engulf NATO.

Another reason to keep all that is as spare parts in general.

 

[Newtonk]

That is the worse case scenario...

 

[Scott Kenny]

That is the worse case scenario...

And much of that surplus/reserve was built during the 1980s and 1990s, though other parts were built because it's cheaper to keep a factory going than it is to shut one down.

 

[Newtonk]

Agreed, and keeps the voters happy (employed), too.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Agreed, and keeps the voters happy (employed), too.

side benefit.

Same thing happened with the 3rd Seawolf class at Electric Boat, Clinton was convinced to support building one more boat with heavy modifications to keep EB working while the Virginia class was still getting designed.

The primary benefit is preserving the industrial base, keeping voters employed is a side benefit.