Fieseler Fi 166

[Michel Van]

the Story of Fieseler Fi 166 is strange
In 1941 Werner von Braun proposed Rocket powered interceptor at Reichs Luftfahrt Ministerium (RLM)
they refused the concept, but Erich Bachem notice the proposal
he work for Gerhard-Fieseler-Werke as Technical manager and proposed later at RLM the "Fi 166 Höhenjäger I"

its Me BF109 (without engine & propeller) with attached underneath a A-5 rocket!
who launches it vertical up to 12000 meter (39,370 ft) were BF109 glide to enemy Bomber
but to unavailability of BF109, Bachem overwork the study
the BF109 is replace by a Me 262 like aircraft wit two Jumbo004 engine, designed by Bachem and to build by Fieseler.
but RLM consider this as impractical.

so Erich Bachem overwork the design to "Fi 166 Höhenjäger II"
this time it a two seat rocketplane with restart Engine
again RLM consider this as impractical.

in 1944 RLM demand manned interceptors for home defense
Erich Bachem proposed the Ba 349-NATTER

some open question about the Fi 166 Höhenjäger:
About the "unavailability" of BF109
BF109 on A5 rocket ? i think the launch rip the BF109 into piece !
was that the truth why Me Bf109 was not use?

was Fi 166 with Jetengine (Me 262 analog) special design for rocket interceptor
or was a other design used for study?

 

[Tophe]

a 3-view drawing seems to be here
http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/Fi.htm

 

[saturncanuck]

Wow, cool stuff.

 

[Michel Van]

on unavailability of BF109 at Gerhard-Fieseler-Werke

they build 70 BF109-T for the aircraftcarrier "Graf Zeppelin"
after this project never came in action
the BF-109-T were used in coastline defence

 

[saturncanuck]

on unavailability of BF109 at Gerhard-Fieseler-Werke

they build 70 BF109-T for the aircraftcarrier "Graf Zeppelin"
after this project never came in action
the BF-109-T were used in coastline defence

Don't forget about the development from this, what became the Bv 155.

 

[Jemiba]

Don't forget about the development from this, what became the Bv 155.

AFAIK, the Bf 109T were re-modified into Bf 109E again, as there never was a need for those
carrier fighter. The Bv 155 stemmed from the Bf 109H series, in itself a development of the
F and G.

 

[Michel Van]

AFAIK, the Bf 109T re-modified into Bf 109E again, as there never was a need for those
carrier fighter. The Bv 155 stemmed from the Bf 109H series, in itself a development of the F and G.

that explane the unavailability of Me BF109
this insane Proposal need a reinforced construction like BF109-T, but still is gonna rips in to piece during launch.

for Fi 166 as "Me 262 like aircraft" with two Jumbo004 engine, RLM say no to it because competition & competence hassles to Me 262 program ?

 

[RdsG46]

I've made a hypothetical drawing about the original bf 109+emw rocket proposal. I hope you like it:

Gabriel

 

[Tophe]

Interesting and pleasant, thanks!
(while personal hypothetical drawings may be better in another section of this forum, I don't know)

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion...

 

[AndyG61]

AFAIK, the Bf 109T were re-modified into Bf 109E again .....

The carrier version was/would have been the 109T-1; after the project was cancelled the bulk of the 70 aircraft on order were completed as 109T-2, with all carrier related equipment (capapult fittings, hooks etc) removed. Due to their extended wings they had much better short field performance, so were allocated to I/JG.77 in Norway where they could be utilised most effectively.

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion...post-2

 

[RdsG46]

My opinion...

Isn't first drawing the first version of Fi 166? I mean, I thought the second version was a von Braun interceptor like rocket plane.


I made my drawing based on this discription: http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/Fi.htm
It's an interesting fact that BF 109's wing sweep and the belly line of the tail section is the same as the Fi 166s (plane+rocket version).

Thank you for the drawings!

 

[archipeppe]

My opinion...

Your opinion is always welcomed Justo!!

 

[Justo Miranda]

 

[Stargazer]

From an old split topic:

 

[Cy-27]

The magazine Luftfahrt History Heft 13 has several drawings of the Höhenjägers I & II TL Type-R & R (Fieseler Fi.166 high altitude fighter) dating from 4 December 1941.

 

[Wurger]

Hi Cy-27, can you please post them?

 

[Cy-27]

Drawings of Fi.166 variants from Luftfahrt History Heft 13 ....

 

[Jemiba]

From "Flugzeug Profile 31", a fancy 3-view with camo scheme and an
internal arrangement drawing:
(pretty sure, we know the artist ... )

 

[Justo Miranda]

Me too ;D

 

[Cy-27]

A little more on the Fi 166 from Die deutsche Luftrustung 1933-1935 by Heinz Nowarra (Bernard & Graefe 1977)

Original text:

Fieseler Fi 166

Unter dieser Bezeichnung fand 1941 bei Fieseler eine Voruntersuchung für die Entwicklung eines Raketenjägers statt. Es wurden zwei Versionen entworfen und durchgerechnet. Höhenjager I, Typ R.R.F1, für eine Flugzeit von 5 minuten in 12000 m Höhe, und Höhenjager II, Typ TL-R-R-uR, für 45 minuten Flugzeit in 12000 m Höhe. Während Typ I reinen Raketenantrieb haben sollte, waren für Typ II zwei Strahlturbinen unter den Tragflächen und ein Raketentriebwerk vorgesehen. Das letztere bildete mit den Treibstoffbehältern eine gesonderte Triebwerkseinheit in einem zweiten Rumpf unter dem eigentlichen im hinteren Teil des oberen Rumpfes.

Fieseler Fi 166 Type I
Tragflächeninhalt: 36.5 m2
Startgewicht: 10000 kg
Fluggewicht: 5620 kg
Landegewicht: 4220 kg
Steigschub: 900 kg
Höchstgeschwindigkeit in 2000 m Höhe: 830 km/h

Fieseler Fi 166 Type II
Tragflächeninhalt: 43.0 m2
Startgewicht: 13500 kg
Fluggewicht: 5930 kg
Landegewicht: 4950 kg
Steigschub: 775 kg
Höchstgeschwindigkeit in 2000 m Höhe: 830 km/h


Translated text:

Fieseler Fi 166

This term covers a preliminary investigation for developing a missile hunter found 1941 Fieseler instead. There were two versions designed and calculated. Altitude-fighter I, Type RRF1, fly for a period of 5 minutes at 12 000 m height, and Altitude-fighter II, TL Type-RR-uR, for 45 minutes flight time at 12,000 m altitude. While type I should have pure rocket propulsion, two jet engines under the wings and a rocket engine were provided for type II. The latter is formed with the fuel tanks, a separate power unit in a second body in the rear part below the actual top of the hull.

Fieseler Fi 166 Type I
Wing area: 36.5 m2
Start weight: 10000 kg
Flying weight: 5620 kg
Landing weight: 4220 kg
Climb thrust: 900 kg
Top speed at 2000 m altitude: 830 km / h

Fieseler Fi 166 Type II
Wing area: 43.0 m2
Start weight: 13500 kg
Flying weight: 5930 kg
Landing weight: 4950 kg
Climb thrust: 775 kg
Top speed at 2000 m altitude: 830 km / h

 

[Jemiba]

"Raketenjäger", literally as you wrote "missile hunter" is a bit misleading. A better term
here is rocket fighter (as rocket powered fighter)

 

[hesham]

Hi,

a good drawing to Fieseler Fi.166.

 

[Vladimir]

I've made a hypothetical drawing about the original bf 109+emw rocket proposal. I hope you like it:

Gabriel

Yes, ilike it, Gabriel! Good work!

 

[hesham]

Old Info in my files,

the Fieseler Fi 166 had anther variant,Höhenjäger III,does anyone hear about it before ?.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Fieseler Fi 166 Höhenjäger I

 

[klem]

Fieseler Fi 166 Höhenjäger I

Nice work Justo, but this launching method , has it been attested or only a speculation?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Fieseler Fi 166 Höhenjäger I

Nice work Justo, but this launching method , has it been attested or only a speculation?

The engine and launch system are those of the V2 missile, the rest of the drawings are speculative.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

So, this abomination of an aircraft would go sonic? If so, all I see is a death trap for the pilot unfortunate enough to be conned--or coerced--into trying to fly it...

 

[Justo Miranda]

So, this abomination of an aircraft would go sonic? If so, all I see is a death trap for the pilot unfortunate enough to be conned--or coerced--into trying to fly it...

On July 6, 1939, von Braun proposed to the RLM the project Stratosphärenjäger I, a high-altitude VTO rocket interceptor powered by one HVA rocket engine that used liquid Oxygen and Methanol as propellants.

This plane would reach 8,000 m altitude in 53 seconds under the control of an SG-52 Kreiselgerät autopilot and four graphite vanes mounted in the rocket nozzle.

After reaching the maximum altitude the pilot could regain manual control for interception, after the attack the fighter would glide back to the base, landing on a retractable ventral skid.

The RLM showed little interest in the project because the complexity of the exotic propellants and the automatic guidance system.

Stratosphärenjäger I technical data

Wingspan: 8.5 m, length: 9.3 m, height: 3.2 m, max weight: 5,000 kg, max speed: 700 km/h, service ceiling: 8,000 m, endurance: 15 min, power plant: one HVA rocket engine with 10,600 peak thrust, propellants: liquid Oxygen and Methanol, armament: four wing mounted machine guns, electronics: R/T device and AI radar of unspecified type.

On May 27, 1941 von Braun proposed the Stratosphärenjäger II, a more fully developed VTO fighter powered by one HVA rocket engine that used Visol and SV-Stoff hypergolic propellants, instead of the very hard to store liquid Oxygen and Hydrogen peroxide.

Visol was a mixture of vinyl ethers (isobutyl-vinyl compounds) that could be replaced by Schweröl (Diesel Oil).

SV-Stoff was a mixture of 90-98% nitric acid and 2-10% sulfuric acid that could be replaced by S-Stoff /Salbei, a mixture of 96% nitric acid and 4% ferrous chloride.

Instead of using vulnerable stationary launch sites, the Type II could be launched from mobile ramps carried on trucks.

In the autumn of 1941 the project was rejected by the RLM, by this time von Braun was fully involved in the development of the V2 missile.

Stratosphärenjäger II technical data

Wingspan: 8.6 m, length: 9.3 m, height: 3.2 m, max weight: 5,080 kg, max speed: 690 km/h, service ceiling: 8,000 m, endurance: 15 min, power plant: one HVA rocket engine, propellants: Visol and SV-Stoff, armament: four wing mounted machine guns, electronics: R/T device and IR seeker of unspecified type.

The Stratosphärenjäger II was developed further by the Heeresversuchsanstalt Peenemünde (HVP) and the Advanced Projects Office of Gerhard Fieseler Werke GmbH, under the leadership of Dipl.-Ing. Erich Bachem.

At the end of 1941 Fieseler proposed to the RLM the VTO fighter Fi 166 in two versions:

-Höhenjäger I was a two-seat, point-defense, rocket interceptor.

-Höhenjäger II was a single-seat, long-range, turbojet fighter the size of a Messerschmitt Bf 110 that could take off vertically by means of a powerful rocket booster, attached to the underside of the fuselage, which was to be jettisoned at 8,000 m altitude.

Both types were fitted with retractable ventral skids.

Early in 1942 the Fi 166 was cancelled in favor of the anti-aircraft missile EMW C2 Wasserfall.

The Germans were not fortunate with the use of hypergolic propellants, the Wasserfall never reached the operational phase and the cost of developing the “Super V2” EMW A8, 700 million of Reichsmark, was seen unaffordable by the HVP.

Fieseler Fi 166 Höhenjäger I typ R-R-FI tecnical data

Wingspan: 16 m, length: 16.56 m, height: 4.7 m, max weight: 5,620 kg, max speed: 810 km/h, service ceiling: 12,000 m, climb rate: 151 m/sec, endurance: 5 min, power plant: one EMW rocket engine with 15,000 kp peak thrust, propellants: Visol and Salbei, electronics: R/T device and AI radar of unspecified type. Pressurized cockpit.

Aircraft of that era were subsonic, despite the excess power available with rocket engines.

After suffering twenty deathly accidents following dives between April and May 1942, the Bf 109 G-2 fighter dive speed was fixed in 850 km/h, before appearance of the first compressibility shockwaves. At Mach 0.86 the Me 262 went out of control in a dive that the pilot could not counter. On October 3, 1942 one V2 experimental rocket achieved a maximum speed of 2,998 mph but German scientists doubted that winged vehicles could exceed the speed of sound. During flight tests of the Me 262 C-1a “Heimatschützer I” it turned out that the excess of power provided by the Walter rocket should be counterbalanced by flying with the nose slighty upwards, thus avoiding that the airplane reached the critical Mach figure.

 

[hesham]

Old Info in my files,

the Fieseler Fi 166 had anther variant,Höhenjäger III,does anyone hear about it before ?.

As I remember,it was from German site or contained a PDF report ?.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

So, this abomination of an aircraft would go sonic? If so, all I see is a death trap for the pilot unfortunate enough to be conned--or coerced--into trying to fly it...

On July 6, 1939, von Braun proposed to the RLM the project Stratosphärenjäger I, a high-altitude VTO rocket interceptor powered by one HVA rocket engine that used liquid Oxygen and Methanol as propellants.

This plane would reach 8,000 m altitude in 53 seconds under the control of an SG-52 Kreiselgerät autopilot and four graphite vanes mounted in the rocket nozzle.

After reaching the maximum altitude the pilot could regain manual control for interception, after the attack the fighter would glide back to the base, landing on a retractable ventral skid.

The RLM showed little interest in the project because the complexity of the exotic propellants and the automatic guidance system.

Stratosphärenjäger I technical data

Wingspan: 8.5 m, length: 9.3 m, height: 3.2 m, max weight: 5,000 kg, max speed: 700 km/h, service ceiling: 8,000 m, endurance: 15 min, power plant: one HVA rocket engine with 10,600 peak thrust, propellants: liquid Oxygen and Methanol, armament: four wing mounted machine guns, electronics: R/T device and AI radar of unspecified type.

On May 27, 1941 von Braun proposed the Stratosphärenjäger II, a more fully developed VTO fighter powered by one HVA rocket engine that used Visol and SV-Stoff hypergolic propellants, instead of the very hard to store liquid Oxygen and Hydrogen peroxide.

Visol was a mixture of vinyl ethers (isobutyl-vinyl compounds) that could be replaced by Schweröl (Diesel Oil).

SV-Stoff was a mixture of 90-98% nitric acid and 2-10% sulfuric acid that could be replaced by S-Stoff /Salbei, a mixture of 96% nitric acid and 4% ferrous chloride.

Instead of using vulnerable stationary launch sites, the Type II could be launched from mobile ramps carried on trucks.

In the autumn of 1941 the project was rejected by the RLM, by this time von Braun was fully involved in the development of the V2 missile.

Stratosphärenjäger II technical data

Wingspan: 8.6 m, length: 9.3 m, height: 3.2 m, max weight: 5,080 kg, max speed: 690 km/h, service ceiling: 8,000 m, endurance: 15 min, power plant: one HVA rocket engine, propellants: Visol and SV-Stoff, armament: four wing mounted machine guns, electronics: R/T device and IR seeker of unspecified type.

The Stratosphärenjäger II was developed further by the Heeresversuchsanstalt Peenemünde (HVP) and the Advanced Projects Office of Gerhard Fieseler Werke GmbH, under the leadership of Dipl.-Ing. Erich Bachem.

At the end of 1941 Fieseler proposed to the RLM the VTO fighter Fi 166 in two versions:

-Höhenjäger I was a two-seat, point-defense, rocket interceptor.

-Höhenjäger II was a single-seat, long-range, turbojet fighter the size of a Messerschmitt Bf 110 that could take off vertically by means of a powerful rocket booster, attached to the underside of the fuselage, which was to be jettisoned at 8,000 m altitude.

Both types were fitted with retractable ventral skids.

Early in 1942 the Fi 166 was cancelled in favor of the anti-aircraft missile EMW C2 Wasserfall.

The Germans were not fortunate with the use of hypergolic propellants, the Wasserfall never reached the operational phase and the cost of developing the “Super V2” EMW A8, 700 million of Reichsmark, was seen unaffordable by the HVP.

Fieseler Fi 166 Höhenjäger I typ R-R-FI tecnical data

Wingspan: 16 m, length: 16.56 m, height: 4.7 m, max weight: 5,620 kg, max speed: 810 km/h, service ceiling: 12,000 m, climb rate: 151 m/sec, endurance: 5 min, power plant: one EMW rocket engine with 15,000 kp peak thrust, propellants: Visol and Salbei, electronics: R/T device and AI radar of unspecified type. Pressurized cockpit.

Aircraft of that era were subsonic, despite the excess power available with rocket engines.

After suffering twenty deathly accidents following dives between April and May 1942, the Bf 109 G-2 fighter dive speed was fixed in 850 km/h, before appearance of the first compressibility shockwaves. At Mach 0.86 the Me 262 went out of control in a dive that the pilot could not counter. On October 3, 1942 one V2 experimental rocket achieved a maximum speed of 2,998 mph but German scientists doubted that winged vehicles could exceed the speed of sound. During flight tests of the Me 262 C-1a “Heimatschützer I” it turned out that the excess of power provided by the Walter rocket should be counterbalanced by flying with the nose slighty upwards, thus avoiding that the airplane reached the critical Mach figure.

Well, in terms of antiaircraft missiles (SAMs) the Germans were nowhere near having a viable one entering service by 1945. Yes, the completely marginal Hs-117 using CLOS control that really wasn't up to the task of guiding a missile, even a subsonic one like the Schmedderling to a target.

Wasserfall proved, postwar, to be completely non-viable as a missile system for a SAM to be based on. While its hypergolic propellant, and other mixtures similar to the German ones, were viable and used in early SAM's, they weren't without serious problems like their dangerous qualities when handled by the ground crew.

A Nike Ajax fueling crew post war. The Nike Ajax used a hypergolic fuel similar to Wasserfall that was highly toxic and a major health hazard, not to mention explosive and highly flammable.

The only really viable alternative for Germany during the war, given the state of their guidance systems, was to use a human pilot to fly the intercept. The Ba 349 Natter is quite literally, a manned SAM for all intents. The various rocket propelled aircraft mentioned above are variations on that theme.

One problem I'm sure the Germans would have quickly discovered was using a pressurized cabin wasn't going to work for weight and technical reasons, an unpressurized one meant the pilot was likely to pass out at the altitudes envisioned, and that a pressure suit would be necessary for these interceptors to work.

 

[edwest4]

What the Germans called a 'high pressure suit' was developed by the Drägerwerke. It is shown on the cover of Natter - Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Brett Gooden.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

What the Germans called a 'high pressure suit' was developed by the Drägerwerke. It is shown on the cover of Natter - Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Brett Gooden.

I would expect the Germans to have something to deal with that problem, the question is How good did it work? I ask that because German aerospace companies and engineering had serious problems with pressurization and high altitude flight throughout the war, and by late war that problem had only grown worse. Of course, a large part of it was simply the state Germany was in by say, 1944.

 

[edwest4]

What the Germans called a 'high pressure suit' was developed by the Drägerwerke. It is shown on the cover of Natter - Manned Missile of the Third Reich by Brett Gooden.

I would expect the Germans to have something to deal with that problem, the question is How good did it work? I ask that because German aerospace companies and engineering had serious problems with pressurization and high altitude flight throughout the war, and by late war that problem had only grown worse. Of course, a large part of it was simply the state Germany was in by say, 1944.

It worked. As Brett Gooden stated in his Natter book, related intelligence reports had been redacted. This suit also appears in the book Nurflügel by Reimar Horten and Peter F. Selinger. A pilot is shown wearing it in the cockpit of a Horten Ho IX.

 

[Justo Miranda]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/space-suit-prototypes-like-grumman-moon-suit-republic-etc.5714/page-3#post-226017

 

[klem]

Development of Sub-Stratosphere Pressure Suits in the German Air Force.(Air technical sevice command report. 11-08-1945)

 

[Justo Miranda]

Ziller_Erwin

 

[Justo Miranda]

Via Brett Gooden