F-20 class aircraft

doolyii

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I remember I did some long discussion in about 10 yrs ago with experts that F-16 is not the same class for a F-5 successor, and US not providing product of that class (something like JAS-39 or something cheaper and lighter in current term, or F-20 back then), US actually lost (and still) of that particular market segment...What's the general opinion about that argument ?

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA228122&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
 

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doolyii said:
I remember I did some long discussion in about 10 yrs ago with experts that F-16 is not the same class for a F-5 successor, and US not providing product of that class (something like JAS-39 or something cheaper and lighter in current term, or F-20 back then), US actually lost (and still) of that particular market segment...What's the general opinion about that argument ?

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA228122&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Well, sales of the other "F-20 class" aircraft since the demise of the Tigershark have been pretty minimal (some Gripens, arguably the Taiwanese ADC, and perhaps the T-50/A-50). At the same time, F-16 sales have been pretty robust. Hard to say that the US lost a huge amount of actual sales as a result.
 
I meant the current F-5 / Mig-21 users who could not afford to have F-16 (or no need), but kept operational by modernizing or fixing up.
 
doolyii said:
I remember I did some long discussion in about 10 yrs ago with experts that F-16 is not the same class for a F-5 successor, and US not providing product of that class (something like JAS-39 or something cheaper and lighter in current term, or F-20 back then), US actually lost (and still) of that particular market segment...What's the general opinion about that argument ?

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA228122&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Actually, the F-20 was in a class with the F-16Cs of the time, except in sheer lifting power and high altitude range, neither of which were major considerations to the target market. JAS-39 is arguably better than the F-16.

However, the F-16 is in use all over the world, it's a "safe" choice, and benefited from some of the most brilliant marketing ever.
 
As TomS said, there is not a big demand for such an aircraft. The country, that cant afford Gripen or F-16 can hardly afford any real jet fighter. The only reason why they still have MiGs-21 is that they are still able to fly. Once they will retire, there will be no substitution. MiG had the project to replace them - izdelije 33 - but it was abandoned in favor of the MFI/LFI programs. BAe made the Hawk 200 but as far as I know it went nowhere. So if some country wants the aircraft of this class, they can do better thing to buy some advanced trainer/light attacker such as Aermacchi M-346, T-50 Golden Eagle or subsonic Aero L-159 Alca.
 
I love the f-20 however if only there were was a twin engined version using using 2 turbofan variants of the j-85-ge-21a. That would’ve been a great idea of turning a great fighter into an even better dogfighter
 
... using 2 turbofan variants of the j-85-ge-21a...

The closest thing to a turbofan development of the J85-GE-21A would've been the CF700 ... not exactly a stellar performer.

So no big surprise that after years of assembling F-5s in Taiwan, AIDC chose the more modern Honeywell TFE1042/F125 turbofan for their F-CK fighters.
 
I love the f-20 however if only there were was a twin engined version using using 2 turbofan variants of the j-85-ge-21a. That would’ve been a great idea of turning a great fighter into an even better dogfighter
WHAT?
Most of those smaller air forces struggle to fuel and maintain single-engined light fighters.
How are they going to afford fuel and spare parts for twice that many engines?
 
hushkit.net recently published a lengthy discussion about the advantages and dis-advantages of light, jet fighters.
 
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Interesting but I think that link is either incorrect or broken.
 
Lightweight robust fighters with enormous fuel fractions greater than the f-16 & design for use on all rough terrain forward shorts air strips low cost high reliability & extremely low maintenance are the way to go
 
Lightweight robust fighters with enormous fuel fractions greater than the f-16 & design for use on all rough terrain forward shorts air strips low cost high reliability & extremely low maintenance are the way to go
Pick any three variables and you might be able to build it.
Hah!
Hah!
 
Pick any three variables and you might be able to build it.
Hah!
Hah!
The question is - is there reeeeally no way when commercial products' user experience grows dumb to the point of (...)?
The situation now looks like:

(1)Countries are hesitant to provide even solutions over half a century old. Not because they're terribly 'advanced', but because they do in fact compromise something significant, be it your own force or forces of your allies, tech, or simply reputation (like it, hate it, burned Leopards and Bradleys were a public shock).
Providing a country even in an all-important fight with something modern largely isn't even considered.

(2)Even when the decision is made, just retraining pilots takes months/years.
Retraining ground personnel is hard to the point of absurdity - while Saab likes to (rightfully) boast how Gripen service can be controlled by a single officer - the problem is how much time is invested in that officer. It alone forces governments up onto the escalation ladder, because providing something like that in a reasonable time is unrealistic: service has to happen on proper facilities, by properly trained men.
When servicing(!) equipment forces dangerous political choices - something went terribly wrong.

(3)And then comes unique, tailor-made infrastructure - such that even industrial countries take years to absorb ... and no one even considers it as an option if this infrastructure is within LACM "political range". Because wars to end all wars can only be fast, furious, and decisive - just like in 1914, home by Christmas. We want them to be like that, after all.

During the CW, both sides had the option to start offloading aircraft in crates right after yet another coup. Ground service&maintenance could be done there, the aircraft in question were rugged enough to last through a good fight without fine maintenance work on them.
If after yet another coup those went to your adversary - "Oh, that's horrible, whatever".
Users could be sure, that if circumstances will change, they will still fly combat missions without magic tricks. And while mediocre - they are still modern fighters.
Other users of the same plane could be sure that something they bought won't turn into a Pumpkin the moment their adversary lays their hand on it.
The producer could be sure that this thing doesn't really compromise him. At worst - now yet another yet again unfriendly country could get some reasonable&modern fighters.

It isn't like during CW everyone around were Neanderthals, there was no tech, and it was impossible to create something advanced and serviceable only at home.

Basic point - F-5/F-20 (while no less outdated than F-16s now in question) could've been sent to a new unstable ally more or less on notice. Mig-21 could've been sent on notice - right into the fray.

Armenia, now Ukraine - something is wrong here. Fighter aircraft fleets are basically capital ship investments now - sure, you can get more aircraft during the war, but only if you invested in this particular fleet in time, well before - and God forbid something happens with a certified(c) maintenance(c) hub.
 
EADS Mako would have been so perfect for this role. I agree not a great market for the size class but I feel if the Mako was built it would have ruled the niche. The performance was eye watering and the quasi stealth features impressive. Combine it with a small AESA like the Vixen 500 you would have a beast.
 
The question is - is there reeeeally no way when commercial products' user experience grows dumb to the point of (...)?
The situation now looks like:
[...]
Basic point - F-5/F-20 (while no less outdated than F-16s now in question) could've been sent to a new unstable ally more or less on notice. Mig-21 could've been sent on notice - right into the fray.

Armenia, now Ukraine - something is wrong here. Fighter aircraft fleets are basically capital ship investments now - sure, you can get more aircraft during the war, but only if you invested in this particular fleet in time, well before - and God forbid something happens with a certified(c) maintenance(c) hub.
Yeah, and there's also the question of capability. In my view, FA-50 is the one and only true successor to the F-5/F-20 in the west in terms of cost and ease of operation but the capability gap between a F-5 and MiG-21 or F-20 and MiG-29 for example was pretty negligible during their existence as a product, compared to how FA-50 fares against modern 4th gen or newer fighters. It is way less attractive as a fighter; maybe, sophistication in aerial warfare have just come too far for there to be a "modern F-5". The good thing is that most of the FA-50 operators and potential buyers are really considering it as a multi-role platform that can do LIFT, peace-time combat training and also work as LWF, a COIN platform/attack craft and more often than not, what their adversaries have in their inventory are far from "top of the line 4th gen + fighters".

Also, another good point brought up in this thread, coupled with what you're saying is that FA-50 ain't no American product. It's really hard to tell if the US would've been more enthusiastic about the idea of supplying Ukraine with fighters earlier had the FA-50 been their product/had their own defense suppliers had anything comparable, though arguably, there might have been less pressure compared to supplying F-16s. So we could question "if the US needs a light fighter that they could quickly, cheaply and most importantly, with minimal political pressure, supply to a foreign country in case of a conflict". T-7A could just as well be that, more so if it also wins the ATT program.

EADS Mako would have been so perfect for this role. I agree not a great market for the size class but I feel if the Mako was built it would have ruled the niche. The performance was eye watering and the quasi stealth features impressive. Combine it with a small AESA like the Vixen 500 you would have a beast.
That I'm not really sure. EADS Mako was supposed to be FA-50 but more capable and stealthy, though the question would be if the potential customers would've even wanted such aircraft in the first place. We all know how the T-50 had a hard time selling itself as an advanced trainer, as the Israelis and (funnily enough in hindsight) Poles have pointed out, most air forces "don't need a Ferrari to train pilots". If T-50's a Ferrari California, Mako's a 458. So it is, so to speak, even more LIFT/LWF oriented than the FA-50. Then would current FA-50 operators want such feature like LO? The Pole's might appreciate such but the others, I'm rather sceptical that a LO would've been such a sell for them in exchange for higher cost. Again, if you wan't more capable LWF, you've got Gripen, Tejas and JF-17. T-50/FA-50 is already very niche in terms of that it is pinched in between other cheaper AJTs like M-346, Yak-130 and L-15 and more capable LWFs mentioned above.

I don't think adding a product in between the FA-50 market position and other more capable LWFs would've really worked, unless T-50 didn't exist in a first place and had Korea actually decided to proceed with Hyundai-EADS consortium for KTX-II, but that didn't happen. Also interesting is the fact that Vixen 500 was also originally the radar that was supposed to be integrated for the FA-50 but that plan failed to materialise due to issues related to source code of the mission computer, which was built by LM. It kinda came full-circle now that they are integrating Phantom Strike and ESR-500A.
 
Yeah, and there's also the question of capability. In my view, FA-50 is the one and only true successor to the F-5/F-20 in the west in terms of cost and ease of operation but the capability gap between a F-5 and MiG-21 or F-20 and MiG-29 for example was pretty negligible during their existence as a product, compared to how FA-50 fares against modern 4th gen or newer fighters. It is way less attractive as a fighter; maybe, sophistication in aerial warfare have just come too far for there to be a "modern F-5".
The problem is quite clearly not the lack of possibility, but lack of political background.
US and Russia don't 'want' simple fighters anymore.
Or, at least, didn't - because Armenia and Ukraine change the field in my view.
F-16 takes two years to make happen, only partially(nuclear war chance).

That's enough time for VKS to make Su-57s come in comparable numbers.
I'm rather sceptical that a LO would've been such a sell for them in exchange for higher cost.
Provided that 90% of LO is geometry (stealth-producing country already paid for related research, software and production capability/techniques), does it really have to be?

F-35 is quite a good example here - LO aircraft by itself doesn't exactly cost more than a contemporary, comparably stuffed(with worse solutions at that) non-LO one.
The price was already paid.
 
The problem is quite clearly not the lack of possibility, but lack of political background.
US and Russia don't 'want' simple fighters anymore.
Or, at least, didn't - because Armenia and Ukraine change the field in my view.
F-16 takes two years to make happen, only partially(nuclear war chance).
Maybe, but I think it's not solely to blame on the politics. It's not like the system has been all that favorable/motivating for the private sector to privately fund and develop such conceptual model like the N-156 and build up on it to turn it into a real product for the last few decades. DoD did provide sizable support in the international F-5 sales but we should keep its origins in mind, I figure. Though with the advent of the new cold-war, such atmosphere might be set for a change.

Provided that 90% of LO is geometry (stealth-producing country already paid for related research, software and production capability/techniques), does it really have to be?

F-35 is quite a good example here - LO aircraft by itself doesn't exactly cost more than a contemporary, comparably stuffed(with worse solutions at that) non-LO one.
The price was already paid.
Well, you have a point there. Only having the LO geometry might already make sense.
 
Gripen isn't exactly a "cheap" aircraft, though.

Per this link, it's actually more expensive than F16 block 70/72, Super Hornet, or even FC-31.

edit: though given how badly they missed the numbers on the F-35, I have to question the entire rest of that list. As of Lot 14, the per-plane cost for F-35A was down to $77.8mil including engine, -B was down to $101.3mil, and -C was down to $94.4mil.
 
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