F-15: Red Bird vs. Blue Bird

KJ_Lesnick

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This is a fairly esoteric subject and I've only heard two mentions of it.


Evidently Colonel Boyd recommended a stripped down FX/F-15-derivative (not sure if McD was selected yet) called the "Red Bird" which was to weigh 33,000 pounds: Of course it was rejected in favor of the Blue Bird.


Does anybody know more?
 
http://etd.auburn.edu/etd/bitstream/handle/10415/595/MICHEL_III_55.pdf?sequence=1

During the Kennedy/Johnson/McNamara conventional buildup,it was clear that because of costs and manpower America could not match the Sovietsí vastly greater numbers of conventional weapons, so American conventional weapons doctrine focused on ìforce multipliersî provided by fewer but more sophisticated and effective conventional weapons that could kill at a 3-4:1 ratio.

Sprey and Boyd disagreed with this doctrine and the high-tech systems it required. The two began to work on an alternate concept to the "Blue Bird,"called the "Red Bird" a clear weather, air-to-air combat only fighter with a top speed of Mach 1.6 instead of the Blue Bird's Mach 2.5+. Boyd and Sprey viewed any speed higher than Mach 1.6 as unnecessary because at that time, for aerodynamic reasons, all dogfights took place at subsonic speed and there was a significant technical and financial price for flying at Mach 2+ They claimed the reduced top speed was the only area where the Red Bird's performance was lower than the Blue Birdís, and that by limiting the Red Bird to Mach 1.6 the fighter would be much less expensive, lighter, and have better performance. Sprey and Boyd also decided to remove the radar and the associated radar-guided missiles which they considered unreliable, further reducing the Red Bird's weight. They estimated the Red Bird would weigh about 23,000 pounds and would provide air-to-air performance equal to the Blue Bird for a far lower unit cost. Additionally, they felt these changes would make the Red Bird more reliable. This seemed to be classic example of "out of the box" thinking, but what Boyd and Sprey were actually doing was not meeting a requirement but changing it. Boyd briefed some members of the Air Staff on the Red Bird concept, while Sprey briefed General Ferguson at Air Force Systems Command, but there were no changes in the Blue Bird.

"Red Bird" lead to LWF and the F-16. It wasn't an F-15 derivative, and wasn't a specific design, rather a concept, but possibly some General Dynamics / Northrop designs may have been presented as example "Red Bird" designs - both companies were involved from the beginning.
 
Overscan,


Thanks for the clarification. I did not know that they were totally separate programs unto themselves.


Regardless this document seems to show the Air Force as even more dysfunctional than I had thought from the beginning
 
KJ_Lesnick said:
Regardless this document seems to show the Air Force as even more dysfunctional than I had thought from the beginning

:eek:

Thanks for the link, Paul
 
As much as I applaud Boyd's mentalities and his work to get the F-15 and F-16 into the skies, I think he was a bit delusional in thinking that close in dogfights were the rule. The F-15 was at it's time probably second to the F-14 as an interceptor, and the kinematic performance it offered made it a very valuable asset. You could not cram a large radar onto an F-16 or large numbers of AIM-7s like the F-15 could (remember this was before AMRAAM). So why create large numbers of less capable fighters that you should expect to lose some of in BVR before the merge? It's possible to have interceptors that are so advanced you don't have to lose any. If the construction and operation of a specific number of advanced fighters is less than the cost of a larger number of more simple planes, while remaining a more potent overall asset, then I think the point is made.

I understand this all is a function of cost though, as well as tactics in combat. I also understand that BVR back then wasn't the same kind of fight it is today too but kinematics are still king in combat be it BVR or in a knife fight.

Regardless of the F-15-Boyd debacle (I know he was not happy with it's end result), I highly respect Boyd and to be one of his acolytes must have been such an enormous privilege. It's a shame he died before he gained the notoriety that he has now. The world needs more people like Boyd.
 

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