F-104 and the bags of gold

[Lascaris]

So lets say someone in Lockheed's marketing staff takes a seriously wrong turn in lte 1958 and you have a fully blown bribes scandal before he German decision to uy F-104G. With it go F-104G's chances of being selected. The NATO countries and Japan still need a new fighter though so who is going to benefit the most? Super Tiger looks a natural enough choice for Canada and Japan and probably also Germany (assuming the Germans still want to go American for political reasons) but what about Italy and the smaller European countries like Belgium and the Netherlands?

 

[lastdingo]

Mirage III was an obvious choice, its long runway requirements being the main problem. Belgium even eventually bought Mirages.

Super Tiger wasn't in production, and this was a major drawback. Mirage customers could also have opted for the J79 engine to satisfy friendship with France AND the USA.


Eventually, the F-5 was the best choice, but that wasn't understood in time. Vietnam first had to deliver evidence about the importance of LOS air combat, including guns. Air forces of the 60's were still too much focused on nuke delivery (including the Luftwaffe).

 

[Ifor]

I've heard bits and pieces about bribe issues surrounding the F104, wasn't there similar concerns with the F111? Is anyone aware of any books covering these issues. If the scandal had come to light, would it have possibly affected the cancellation of the SARO 177?

 

[alertken]

On F-104 just search F-J Strauss, Prince Bernhardt, and PM Tanaka. Be glad you are not a senior marketing executive addressing terra incognita. It is entirely possible that Agents and their fees were unnecessary. Entire Cabinets, not a couple of suborned individuals, were involved in the definition of the Task. In NATO, 1959, that emerged as Zipper nuclear strike, in, out and away. For 1970s it was presumed that runways would not be available, so V/STOL seemed to be the long term solution - FRG at one time had 36 project schemes. But for 1962-70 something was needed that could be built by the renewed FRG/Italian industry, which was merely assembling F-84F/F-86D/K. US DoD had not yet settled on (tobe) F-4C, so some low-risk derivative of something was needed.

So, forget SR.177, which was unfit for the Task. Rapid climb-to-height interception was not what was sought. Mirage III was a candidate but then as now France had a distinctive notion of collaboration. It was Super Tiger or a modest role change on F-104C. Simples. So if the bribery had emerged earlier: Super Tiger (except, of course, that Grumman had no more experience of selling in W.Europe, so they, too, had their Agents, doubtless adroit at the same game).

 

[J.A.W.]

Lockheed's 'bags of gold' AFAIR, were not - in fact limited to the 'Widowmaker', - the Hercules/Orion went there too..

& didn't poor old E.E. try & interest the Germans in the Lightning, as they had run a few Brit fighters post-war..

 

[pathology_doc]

If the scandal had come to light, would it have possibly affected the cancellation of the SARO 177?

Per Derek Wood (Project Cancelled), the 177's problem was that it had been nixed by Sandys and Germany wasn't keen to buy an aircraft that wasn't being supported by its own government. I have a vague recollection of English Electric trying to sell the Lightning there, would have to check up on that, but...

what about Italy and the smaller European countries like Belgium and the Netherlands?

...ultimately Italy modified its Starfighters to work with Italy's version of the Sparrow, Aspide, which the Lightning wouldn't have been amenable to. In Italy's case, they were able to fit the Sparrow gear in by taking the gun out but the fact that the Lightning's radar is in a centre-body bullet and not within proximity of the weapons pack probably precludes a similar modification.

 

[BlackBat242]

The F11F-1F (Super Tiger) that was the expressed preference of the evaluators in Japan and Germany* had been designed in several variants - a couple of which were Sparrow-capable.

Similar European manufacturing agreements as with the F-104 could easily have been made with Grumman.
After all, when Germany and France showed early interest in the OV-1 Mohawk, Grumman actually signed a license production agreement with the French manufacturer Breguet Aviation in exchange for American rights to the Atlantic maritime patrol aircraft.

The only problem was that Leroy Grumman didn't actually want the contracts*, as he felt that the US government would think Grumman didn't need the other contracts they were vying for at the time [A2F (A-6), OV-1 Mohawk, W2F-1 (E-2 Hawkeye), 400 F9F-8T (TF-9J Cougar), and P-2 Neptune replacement (see above), etc] and award them to other companies.
Maintenance of the manufacturing base was a real factor in contract awards at the time - when GD was awarded the TFX contract that was cited as a significant factor in not choosing Boeing**.

With assurances from the government that Grumman wouldn't suffer in US competitions, he would have actually tried to win those foreign F11F-1F contracts.


* In his book on the Super Tiger Grumman chief test pilot Corwin "Corky" Meyer wrote about there being only 4 sales-people dedicated to selling the F11F-1F present when the foreign evaluation teams were visiting... and it was all of their first sales program work!
Leroy Grumman, after receiving a telegram on Dec. 17 1957 that Germany had selected the Super Tiger over the F-104, called the Navy directly, and told them he would not accept the contract!

** Grumman was then awarded the contracts for the first 4 projects... losing only the P-2 replacement to Lockheed and their P3V (P-3) Orion.