E-100 turret

[Charlesferdinand]

On a whim, I bought the Trumpeter 1/72 kit of the E-100. Now, the prototype that was found by the Allies didn't have a turret, of course. Trumpeter have given it a turret that is obviously based on the Henschel turret of the Tiger II. Is there any basis for this, or is it just a pure flight of fancy. The French magazine TNT recently did a feature on the E-100, and they have a quite different trapezoid design, with a coaxial short 75 mm.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know which is the most plausible?

 

[Foo Fighter]

There are a few theories, including the use of the Maus itself but I do not think this this would work, I will have to go through my books to check. In my very humble opinion, the turret would be based on the Tiger ausf B otherwise known as the King Tiger. My opinion is based on weight and complexity.

 

[Nick Sumner]

The final design was for something like this.

http://imgur.com/gMsFgPU

Its all in Panzer Tracts No. 6-3: Schwere Panzerkampfwagen Maus and E 100 by Thomas L. Jentz.

 

[Charlesferdinand]

The final design was for something like this.

http://imgur.com/gMsFgPU

Its all in Panzer Tracts No. 6-3: Schwere Panzerkampfwagen Maus and E 100 by Thomas L. Jentz.

Aha, that is the one given in TnT Magazine (they have done quite few items on the E-100). At one point the Maus turret was indeed proposed, and that is what Von Senger und Etterlin gives, noting that they didn't succeed in mounting the turret on the hull.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I had a look through my research bits and pieces and did not come up with much. The one picture of an E-100 with a turret in situ cannot be 100%, it is too clean but fuzzily focused. There are a few diagrams of the Krupp turret in Panzer tracts 6-3 which has been suggested by H.L. Doyle and T. Jentz and they would not include something they were not certain of.

 

[Hood]

I have found another plan drawing by H.L. Doyle in a small booklet series, Bellona Military Vehicle Prints, Series 18, 1969.
Doyle's drawing of E-100's turret matches exactly the top photograph Foo Fighter posted with the curved face plate. The text makes no explanation of the turret other than a brief explanation, it quotes a 15th January 1945 Adler report which seems to indicate at that time they didn't even know the dimensions and travelling weight to organise its transport to Haustenbeck. The historical information came from Walter J. Spielberger

Photos in the booklet itself I think have been reproduced elsewhere since; rear view of incomplete prototype, right-hand side view, another rear view when discovered by US forces, the 100cm wide battle tracks, pile of armoured skirts and the muzzle of a 15cm KwK 44 (with a Tiger I chassis in the background).

 

[Charlesferdinand]

For those unfamiliar with the kit, this is what Trumpeter thinks the turret would look like. Probably without any factual basis, but it looks cool, and that is what sells kits (it certainly worked for me)

 

[Foo Fighter]

The Tiger Ausf B type turret does look better but it comes down to what you think looks right rather than any certainty as these things were apt to change many times during the design and prototyping process. For myself, I cannot believe a turret with a shot trap would be entertained after recognition of the problem with the Panther.

 

[Michel Van]

According literature based on E-100 blueprints (021A38300)
A new turret had to be designed for E-100; intended to be simpler and lighter than the Maus turret
with a 15 cm KwK 44 L/38 or a 12.8 cm KwK 44 L/55 gun


According Wikipedia
is this a Wood model of E-100 from 1945

This part is of the 12.8 cm KwK 44 L/55 gun for E-100

 

[newsdeskdan]

E-100 turret.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Very nice, any chance of seeing the whole graphic? Please?

 

[JFC Fuller]

Isn't that basically the original Maus turret?

 

[Michel Van]

Isn't that basically the original Maus turret?

I was first exposed to that, but looking the plans in detail
This Turret deviate from VII Maus

the Cover for hatch and Periscope are on different position as on Maus
while the Maus Turret has two hatches, this here got only one
and Main armament is label as 150 mm gun (Maus got only 128 mm gun)
also is Secondary armament different to Maus

 

[JFC Fuller]

I think you are right. It looks like the commanders cupola has been raised and gunners periscope moved back so its only just ahead of the commanders cupola.

Underneath the 15cm note on the drawing is a second note in brackets stating 17.4 cm which was the even larger calibre weapon suggested.

The secondary armament looks the same as the 75mm on the Maus to me?

 

[Michel Van]

The secondary armament looks the same as the 75mm on the Maus to me?

original planed was a for E-100 a co-axial 75 mm KwK 44 L/36.5, but those plans show the barrel is far to short for that gun.

back to Turret, it look like that Krupp design of December 1942.

 

[JFC Fuller]

It looks like the 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24. I think you are right, that turret looks exactly like the December 1942 Maus turret which means it pre-dates the one eventually put into limited production for the Maus.

Another interesting observation from that drawing is the "Project B" part of the table, I can pull out Maybach HL-232, 1,200PS for 40km/hr. Can somebody translate the rest of that table? It seems to suggest some significant differences between the A and B variants in terms of the drive-train.

 

[sgeorges4]

The turret wasn't for the E-100 itself,but for the tiger-maus,,a project from 1942 wich ws reactivated for the E-100(in this case,the chassis was re use for E-100).

 

[Michel Van]

My try on translation

Compilation "E100" 021 A 38300

Masses ( metric tones)
Hull including Tract protection 53 tons
total engine 6.0
total tracks system 20.0
Turret with ammo 51,5
equipment and extra 9.5
Total Mass 140.0 metric tons (That's E-140)

suspension - characteristic values
absorbed weight (92%) 128 tons (contradiction to 140 metric tons total mass)
parallel own oscillation numbers? 82 / minute
Nick own oscillation numbers? no info
Track surface 93000 Quadrant centimeter
surface pressure on track 1.4 kg/ Quadrant centimeter
steering proportion L:ip 1.6

Project A
Engine Maybach HL230 P30 like Tiger:B
700 hp 3000 turns /minute
Max speed 23 km/h
Translation gear box 1.setting 1:333.3 /2.setting 1:21.2
power? Gear ?? 4017 18 B like Tiger:B
steering Gear L801 two radii gear Henkel? like Tiger:B

Project B
Engine Maybach New Project
1200 hp 3000 turns /minute
Max speed 40 km/h
Translation gear box 1.setting 1:192 / 2.setting 1:12.2
[gear box] Mechanic Hydraulic kombination - power - steering Gear
Maybach New Project

 

[Leinad]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

 

[newsdeskdan]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

Scanned it from the original document myself.

 

[Leinad]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

Scanned it from the original document myself.

I see, if it's not too invasive, could I know from what collection / archive you scanned this document from?

 

[Graham1973]

On the Trumper E-100 Turret...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq0QkjDfQp8

 

[newsdeskdan]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

Scanned it from the original document myself.

I see, if it's not too invasive, could I know from what collection / archive you scanned this document from?

Imperial War Museum.

 

[Leinad]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

Scanned it from the original document myself.

I see, if it's not too invasive, could I know from what collection / archive you scanned this document from?

Imperial War Museum.

Thank you very much!

 

[Leinad]

E-100 turret.

That's a great, high-quality scan. May I ask where you have acquired it from?

Scanned it from the original document myself.

I see, if it's not too invasive, could I know from what collection / archive you scanned this document from?

Imperial War Museum.

One last question, do you happen to know this documents object title and archive designation?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem with that Henschel-style turret is the sides. In order to make those as illustrated, Germany had to have a plate rolling machine capable of forming the sides out of material of the thickness required. I don't think the Germans had one that could form such a thick plate. As it was, there was just one machine in all of Germany for forming Tiger I and II turret armor into the shapes required, and that was with 80mm plate. I'd postulate that any turret the E-100 would have gotten would have been made from flat plates as a result.

 

[Foo Fighter]

A reality bites situation. Even decent whif's have to have some degree of rationality applied.

 

[ragnarok77777]

Scanned it from the original document myself.

Hello friend, would you have complete photos of the E100 blueprints??

 

[Mephito19365]

The problem with that Henschel-style turret is the sides. In order to make those as illustrated, Germany had to have a plate rolling machine capable of forming the sides out of material of the thickness required. I don't think the Germans had one that could form such a thick plate. As it was, there was just one machine in all of Germany for forming Tiger I and II turret armor into the shapes required, and that was with 80mm plate. I'd postulate that any turret the E-100 would have gotten would have been made from flat plates as a result.

I suggest you check out the blueprints from the prototype stage of the Maus, which had curved sides.Also, now that the Germans have the ability to bend the turret frontal armor, thinner side armor won't be a problem.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I suggest you check out the blueprints from the prototype stage of the Maus, which had curved sides.Also, now that the Germans have the ability to bend the turret frontal armor, thinner side armor won't be a problem.

I'd have to see those to know if they are roll forming the piece or casting it. While the Germans didn't generally do very large castings, they did do some versus roll forming and other processes to shape flat plate.