Diehl, KMW, KBP 105mm SPEAR

[armen]

Does anyone have any more information about the gun launched beam-riding 105mm projectile?
Here's what i have:

• https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=843
  
  
• https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA385710.pdf
  
  

 

[Scott Kenny]

First I've heard of it.

And basically an AT-10/9M117? interesting... Obviously requires the addition of the beam-riding guidance system to the tank but otherwise is pretty much the same as any other round of 105mm...

 

[armen]

First I've heard of it.

And basically an AT-10/9M117? interesting... Obviously requires the addition of the beam-riding guidance system to the tank but otherwise is pretty much the same as any other round of 105mm...

Initially I even thought this was something akin to the LOSAT ATGM but it is more likely that due to the Russian influence this would have been a HEAT ATGM

 

[Scott Kenny]

Initially I even thought this was something akin to the LOSAT ATGM but it is more likely that due to the Russian influence this would have been a HEAT ATGM

Yeah, I think it was HEAT as well.

For shooting BLOS, HEAT just works better. Even though sabot darts don't lose a lot of speed over distance, they still lose speed.

 

[armen]

• Jane's Armour and Artillery Upgrades 2001-2002

 

[Big_Zukini]

• Jane's Armour and Artillery Upgrades 2001-2002

It's amazing, the gap between how much GLATGM persisted in both debate/literature and the tank market, versus how much it's actually employed or relevant in any combat since.

 

[armen]

It's amazing, the gap between how much GLATGM persisted in both debate/literature and the tank market, versus how much it's actually employed or relevant in any combat since.

Aside from the spear, the west, mainly Germans, also made the EPHAG which was basically a GLATGM but Anti helicopter

 

[timmymagic]

It's amazing, the gap between how much GLATGM persisted in both debate/literature and the tank market, versus how much it's actually employed or relevant in any combat since.

There were reports early on that both the Ukrainian's and Russian's have made good use of them, particularly as the huge numbers of ATGM meant crews wanted to maintain as much distance as possible. There has been video's of Russian tanks using them in Mariupol for example.

The 100mm gun launcher in the BMP-3 appears to have been a failure though. Everyone seems to agree that the 30mm is far more effective and more rounds for that would have been a superior choice, and that the 100mm rounds stacked around the turret are a significant reason for BMP-3 blowing up with any penetration whatsoever...

 

[armen]

There were reports early on that both the Ukrainian's and Russian's have made good use of them, particularly as the huge numbers of ATGM meant crews wanted to maintain as much distance as possible. There has been video's of Russian tanks using them in Mariupol for example.

The 100mm gun launcher in the BMP-3 appears to have been a failure though. Everyone seems to agree that the 30mm is better, and that the 100mm rounds stacked around the turret are a significant reason for BMP-3 blowing up with any penetration...

Truth is bmp3 is an ifv and 30mm is all you need. For atgms you can have launchers like on the bmp2 but you don't really need a HE lobbing gun that's just cause for Ammo rack detonation. Use a grenade launcher lol.

 

[timmymagic]

Truth is bmp3 is an ifv and 30mm is all you need. For atgms you can have launchers like on the bmp2 but you don't really need a HE lobbing gun that's just cause for Ammo rack detonation. Use a grenade launcher lol.

Thats the crazy thing...it has an AGS as well...

But the ATGM launcher from BMP2 is also not great...the only advantage to it is that it can be dismounted and used by infantry, and it appears that all have been dismounted, hardly any BMP2 seen with ATGM since the early months of the war.

 

[armen]

Thats the crazy thing...it has an AGS as well...

But the ATGM launcher from BMP2 is also not great...the only advantage to it is that it can be dismounted and used by infantry, and it appears that all have been dismounted, hardly any BMP2 seen with ATGM since the early months of the war.

During this war I haven't seen many bmps even get into firing range for the grenade launcher to hit enemy infantry.
I'm starting to think it's going to be restricted to urban use from now

 

[Scott Kenny]

Truth is bmp3 is an ifv and 30mm is all you need. For atgms you can have launchers like on the bmp2 but you don't really need a HE lobbing gun that's just cause for Ammo rack detonation. Use a grenade launcher lol.

My friend the Stryker officer would disagree. He says that an Infantry Carrier Vehicle should have a weapon capable of blasting obstacles and bunkers.

 

[armen]

My friend the Stryker officer would disagree. He says that an Infantry Carrier Vehicle should have a weapon capable of blasting obstacles and bunkers.

Ideally yes. It's just that many of such vehicles don't need a HE slinging gun.
Like the puma has a smaller 30mm autocannon that does the work quite well.

Ps. How do I change/get a different/higher level of access and does it do anything?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Ideally yes. It's just that many of such vehicles don't need a HE slinging gun.
Like the puma has a smaller 30mm autocannon that does the work quite well.

If every vehicle doesn't have one, then chances are basically guaranteed that the HE slinger will never be where it is needed.

Ps. How do I change/get a different/higher level of access and does it do anything?

Post more, it's just an activity thing.

IIRC "Senior Member" is different.

 

[Firefinder]

Ideally yes. It's just that many of such vehicles don't need a HE slinging gun.
Like the puma has a smaller 30mm autocannon that does the work quite well.

Ps. How do I change/get a different/higher level of access and does it do anything?

Thats largely a hold over due to the fact that IFVs are still...

A fairly recent thing that hasn't really been in heavy prolong fighting pushing refinements like tanks have in the World Wars and Korea.

Like outside of the Iran Iraqi war, which lets be honestly no one high up pay DEEP attention to, most of the fighting IFVs have done have a been a year at most until Ukraine.

So they are still... Unrefine with many different opipions on how they work with the Money holders who pay for the new vehicles being equally divided.

Like look at a T series and any western tank. Tank been refine to the point that you can point at any of those and say YES TANK. Cause the requirements are largely the same with it being the fine details and doctrine keeping everything from looking the complete same.

While look at a Bradly to the Puma or BMP or ZDV or what have you.

IFVs are very much still in the Throw Shit at the Wall phase of development.

The idea for yeet HE at obstacles is partly why the US Army been trying to get the 50mm on a vehicle. That basically the Biggest size you can make a vehicle mounted autocannon while being the smallest to have a decent HE load.

 

[armen]

If every vehicle doesn't have one, then chances are basically guaranteed that the HE slinger will never be where it is needed.

I was thinking maybe a rocket launcher strapped onto the vehicle like an ATGM tube. That could work.

 

[armen]

@Firefinder

I think the Marder 2 was the best vehicle made in this regard.
A dual calibre 30/50 autocannon with good HE and APFSDS as well as option to mount the PARS 3 MR would have been the most suited to actual combat. Ofcourse would need to be modernised to current technological standards.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I was thinking maybe a rocket launcher strapped onto the vehicle like an ATGM tube. That could work.

I mean, Bradleys were doing that with TOWs, and Strykers with Javelins. But it's expensive to use an ATGM with a frag sleeve to blow up a bunker or roadblock, both financially and in terms of no longer having that ATGM around when tanks show up.

Back in Vietnam, there were plans for a 70mm automatic grenade launcher, basically a scaled-up Mk19, for the USN units in the Delta. But this happened in 1969 or 70, and then Vietnamization happened so the plans were dropped after only a couple prototypes were made. It would throw a roughly 12lb shell with lots of HE filler; because the grenade is only doing like 335m/s it doesn't need to be a thick-walled casting. IIRC the prototype was only about 110lbs. For a modern IFV I might use one of those in one RWS, with a different weapon in a second RWS.

 

[armen]

i meant using a literal HE-Fragmentation rocket by strapping a launcher to the vehicle, but i digress, a launcher that is compatible with both ATGMs and Unguided rockets may prove highly versatile

 

[Scott Kenny]

i meant using a literal HE-Fragmentation rocket by strapping a launcher to the vehicle, but i digress, a launcher that is compatible with both ATGMs and Unguided rockets may prove highly versatile

Still gets you into the issue of limited reloads. For every HE-frag rocket you carry, that's one less ATGM you can carry.

 

[armen]

Still gets you into the issue of limited reloads. For every HE-frag rocket you carry, that's one less ATGM you can carry.

ig guns it is then lol. 50mm for the win. bring back marder 2