Did the Bundeswehr consider producing modernized Panzer V Panther in early 50's?

[Pioneer]

G'day all

I'm just going through some old documentation (yes hand written notes, so it's undoughtedly 1990's) and came across the following:
"In early 50′s, the new Bundeswehr consideration to produced modernized Panzer V Panther tank with upgraded armament and electronics, but they elected to purchase cheaper and available American tanks." With this unsourced quote, I have noted to myself "find out more about this proposal!!"

So it is that I ask the forum as to whether anyone has more information/confirmation on this Bundeswehr consideration?


Regards
Pioneer

 

[CJGibson]

Interesting. Don't suppose the source mentioned whether it was to be based on the Ausf. G or the Panther II?

Chris

 

[Pioneer]

No, sorry Chris, the quote I've submitted is all that I have my friend


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Foo Fighter]

Or the Ausf F?

 

[Pioneer]

Ok, so extending this line of question in regards to Post-WW2 Bundeswehr need and want to reestablish it's tank force, I've also found this point in my old documentation:
'The new Post-WWII West German Army (Bundeswehr) preferred the British Centurion design over that of the US designed M47 design.
The Centurion was also ¾ cheaper to buy, than the American design.'

So does anyone have any more information on this?
(I recall reading or someone saying - that part of the Bundeswehr opting for the M47 over that of the Centurion tank for its ORBAT was due to the British Army's wake-up call in relationship to the Korean War, and it's urgent need to manufacture the Centurion tank for itself, which entailed it's inability to manufacture them for export, even if it wanted too!')

Regards
Pioneer

 

[LVisingr]

"In early 50′s, the new Bundeswehr consideration to produced modernized Panzer V Panther tank with upgraded armament and electronics, but they elected to purchase cheaper and available American tanks." With this unsourced quote, I have noted to myself "find out more about this proposal!!"

Yes, true. I also read about it in some source (don't remember exactly), thus, I asked one of my friends that lives in Germany, he is in contact with several WM/BW veterans and they directly confirmed it to him. The upgraded Panther was to use 90 mm gun and (maybe) diesel enegine, but the whole idea was a political nightmare (since Panther was "Nazi" tank, after all) and the strong American influence led to the acquisition of M47.

And more irony of history - Panther tanks were almost acquired by the army of Israel! The Jewish agents were interested in several dozens Panther tanks that were owned by the Czechoslovakia, the vehicles were offered for sale, but the price was too high, thus, Israelis rather decided to buy British and French tanks.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Ok, so extending this line of question in regards to Post-WW2 Bundeswehr need and want to reestablish it's tank force, I've also found this point in my old documentation:
'The new Post-WWII West German Army (Bundeswehr) preferred the British Centurion design over that of the US designed M47 design.
The Centurion was also ¾ cheaper to buy, than the American design.'

So does anyone have any more information on this?
(I recall reading or someone saying - that part of the Bundeswehr opting for the M47 over that of the Centurion tank for its ORBAT was due to the British Army's wake-up call in relationship to the Korean War, and it's urgent need to manufacture the Centurion tank for itself, which entailed it's inability to manufacture them for export, even if it wanted too!')

I think you mean 25% cheaper rather than 25% of the cost.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[LVisingr]

I asked the friend again, the BW veterans confirmed. Yes, Centurion was a preferred option for a lot of (although probably not all) tankers, but the British didn't have enough production capabilities and the US influence was stronger.

 

[lastdingo]

The official history of the German army till 1970 leaves no doubt that Amt Blanck hoped to get a complete American equipment for alnost free. Instead, the U.S. delivered only part of what was needed, much was old and used stuff and far from ideal.

The M47 was too thirsty (short-legged) and considered unsuitable for agile mobile warfare.

 

[GWrecks]

I remember hearing on /k/ (Which is admittedly a terrible place to get information) that if one has a large supply of Panther tanks sitting around and needs to get them to Cold War operational status they should "scrap them and buy Pattons instead".

I'm not sure if they're overplaying the expense/unreliability of Nazi tanks, but I still can't help thinking that handmade tanks are not a good idea. Are these notions as founded as people make them to be?

 

[Pioneer]

Interesting!!
Thank's and keep it coming, there's gotta be some interesting hard concrete information out there!!

"I'm not sure if they're overplaying the expense/unreliability of Nazi tanks, but I still can't help thinking that handmade tanks are not a good idea."

Does anyone have an idea how much the MAN, Daimler-Benz, MNH tank factories were damaged at the end of the Second World War?

Is there any figures as to how many Panther's were recovered at the end of hostilities?, for I'm wondering if the factories and skilled labour was still available at the time of the 1950's when the Bundeswehr considered using/putting the Panther back into service/production, that it might not be as difficult as some say and think!

I'm thinking as a improvised measure, if the German government could obtain enough complete Panther's (including canolbilisation of wrecked and battle-damaged), that as stated by LVisingr

'upgraded Panther was to use 90 mm gun and diesel engine'

Then the German government/Bundeswehr might have got itself some 100+, 200+ battle ready tanks, some employment opportunities, until the advent of the designing, building and deployment of the Leopard 1.........

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Hood]

It does seem an odd decision if its true, although I suspect any modernisation of the basic Panther design would have been pretty comprehensive.
A good tank for the mid-40s, it was dated by the 1950s. Even the French had retired their 50 Panthers by 1950.

As to production aspects, the French had managed to secure enough recoverable hulls and components to get 50 operational Panthers. In 1946 Swedish evaluators found a few surviving examples and shipped one back home. The last 'production' examples were 90 Panthers and 12 Jagdpanthers assembled in late 1945 under the supervision of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers using available components which were shipped to Britain for trials.
This suggests what limited assembly their was made use of existing stocks. Of course that doesn't mean their wasn't more parts left over, but by 1950 its unlikely that the stocks would have been that big or even still in existence.

As to the interest in the Centurion, mention has been made of the Korean War and British production, that is probably so, although it must be remembered that the Bundeswehr was not created until 1955, two years after the Korean War. Production capacity however, was still limited so it would have precluded large orders for West Germany. The more important factor was probably political. The rearmament of Germany was a political hot potato in the early 1950s. The thought of rearming the Panzer Corps with British tanks may well have been politically unpalatable in Whitehall before 1955.

 

[TsrJoe]

Might be worth a look through publications on the then new Leopard re any pre proposals based upon wartime developments, il have a dig through the boxes

 

[Pioneer]

Might be worth a look through publications on the then new Leopard re any pre proposals based upon wartime developments, il have a dig through the boxes

That would be great and most appreciated TsrJoe

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Foo Fighter]

Going against the grain a bit, but. Would the Ausf B Tiger not be a better start point?

 

[GTX]

there's gotta be some interesting hard concrete information out there!!

Any hard evidence would be a plus.

 

[GTX]

Going against the grain a bit, but. Would the Ausf B Tiger not be a better start point?

Why?

 

[kaiserd]

Going against the grain a bit, but. Would the Ausf B Tiger not be a better start point?

Why?

Given that the whole thrust of post-war German tank design was to some extent a reaction against flawed monsters like the Tiger II then appears highly unlikely any (serious or otherwise) thought given to post-war developments of that design.

 

[Pioneer]

"The last 'production' Panthers were produced at the factory by German staff just after the end of World War II under the supervision of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers(REME) using available components. 9 x Panthers and 12 x Jagdpanthers were produced and shipped back to Britain for post-war trials."

(source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Postwar_and_foreign_use)

I'm taking a punt here, but I'm thinking this information supports my assertion, that the Panther production facilities would have still been functional - hence my thoughts on Panther production being semi-cost effective in terms of Post-WW2 West German economic reconstruction and burden............

As a side note to your question Foo Fighter, and not wanting to deviate off 'Panther manufacturing' topic, I think the notion of the Bundeswehr wanting to deal with the excessive weight low speed and mechanical complication of the Ausf B Tiger, wouldn't be appealing in both terms of cost or operational difficulty. I think its safe to say that the Wehrmacht - and hence the Bundeswehr knew and appreciated this better than anyone.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[GTX]

"The last 'production' Panthers were produced at the factory by German staff just after the end of World War II under the supervision of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers(REME) using available components. 9 x Panthers and 12 x Jagdpanthers were produced and shipped back to Britain for post-war trials."

(source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Postwar_and_foreign_use)

I'm taking a punt here, but I'm thinking this information supports my assertion, that the Panther production facilities would have still been functional - hence my thoughts on Panther production being semi-cost effective in terms of Post-WW2 West German economic reconstruction and burden............

Maybe, though in the 5+ yrs since 1945 (given you are talking about this production re-starting in the early 1950s), a lot could have happened/ Moreover, it is one thing to basically assemble vehicles from existing parts that were available. It is another to re-commence the entire production supply chain.

 

[Pioneer]

"The last 'production' Panthers were produced at the factory by German staff just after the end of World War II under the supervision of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers(REME) using available components. 9 x Panthers and 12 x Jagdpanthers were produced and shipped back to Britain for post-war trials."

(source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Postwar_and_foreign_use)

I'm taking a punt here, but I'm thinking this information supports my assertion, that the Panther production facilities would have still been functional - hence my thoughts on Panther production being semi-cost effective in terms of Post-WW2 West German economic reconstruction and burden............

Maybe, though in the 5+ yrs since 1945 (given you are talking about this production re-starting in the early 1950s), a lot could have happened/ Moreover, it is one thing to basically assemble vehicles from existing parts that were available. It is another to re-commence the entire production supply chain.

I agree completely Greg / GTX
I'm wondering as to when M.A.N recommenced the manufacturing of its military trucks for the Bundeswehr? I'm guessing this manufacturing might have even occurred in the same factory that the Panther was manufactured?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Still researching this topic, and Oh came across this snippet of interesting info, which I'd also like to put to the forum for further information please:

In late 1940s, Israeli high command was considering starting production of modified Panther but it was never realized.”

(Source:https://www-d0.fnal.gov/~turcot/Armour/pz4.htm)

A friend said he heard something similar, which included Israel attempting to negotiate with Czechoslovakia to purchase their Panther's, left over from the war.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[lastdingo]

There's a test report from Yugoslavia in the 50's floating around that clearly shows the KwK 42 would have been too weak by 1950's MBT standards. The Tiger II's much more powerful gun looked hardly satisfactory.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Considering the direction of Soviet tanks at the time and opponents like the T-10 series, a Tiger ausf B with the 105mm gun looks quite reasonable. Seeing as development must be led by threat rather than history.

 

[kaiserd]

Considering the direction of Soviet tanks at the time and opponents like the T-10 series, a Tiger ausf B with the 105mm gun looks quite reasonable. Seeing as development must be led by threat rather than history.

West Germany didn’t see it that way and stayed right away from super-heavy tanks.
More on their thinking below (sane basic info also available from many other sources):
https://www.google.com/amp/www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/German_Cold_War_tanks.php/amp/

 

[Pioneer]

Am I right to say that the obsession with grandiose super-heavy tanks was primarily in accordance with Hitler's psychopathy and pipe dreams, rather than that of the need and wants of the actual Wehrmacht? The fact, as in so many cases of the Wehrmacht not having the balls to say to Hitler - 'ah, that's dumb, that's a tactically stupid design, which goes against combat tested experience we've bleed and died gaining.'
Something I feel is/was reflected by the fact that the post-WWII Bundeswehr, had the sense to recognise when needing and formulating their new indigenous (and later joint MBT programs) - as exemplified by the Leopard 1 RfP/compation 'mobility., firepower and then protection.......'



Regards
Pioneer

 

[lastdingo]

A lesson from the France campaign 1940 was that tanks work miraculously fine, but the tanks in the inventory were also nothing more than bulletproofed.
Even the lgihtest ATGs (25 mm) easily pierced them. It's understandable that they wanted some shellproofed heavies as breakthrough tanks in the mix. The Brits and even more so the French already introduced those in 1937 and their types scared the Germans for want of firepower.

So based on experience a drive for more penetration power and thicker walls was just natural. Tiger was thus (also in light of flat terrain with long lines of sight in army group south terrain) very understandable and probably worth its expense until 85 mm and 17pdrs became common.


Furhtermore, look at what the Bundeswehr did after it had Leopard 1; it didn't go for even more mobility and even more penetration at constnat mass. They preferred to seek a balanced design (Leopard 2 with Chobham-style protection) that promised to resist 125 mm in frontal 60° while Leopard 1 didn't even promise to resist T-55's old 100 mm gun.
Developments are often path dependent like that. People become dissatisfied with the downsides of some compromise, then change the compromise in the next design.

 

[Foo Fighter]

With this being said, I would LOVE to have a chat with the person/people who came up with the side armour and engine compromise for Chieftain. 38mm of side armour for an MBT? 13mm of aluminium for the side skirts? What?????

 

[Sherman Tank]

Going against the grain a bit, but. Would the Ausf B Tiger not be a better start point?

Why? It was overweight, slow, and much harder to build and service than the Panther (not a small accomplishment considering what a pig the Panther was).

 

[Foo Fighter]

With a better engine and transmission it would have been at least as good if not better. I am trying to find availability stats but before my hdd failure those I had showed the Tiger ausf B to be more reliable than the Panther. At that time the Soviets had a fair few heavy duty tanks around and they would have been a fair part of the opposition. Panther was designed to be in the 35 to 40 ton class rather than the 45 to 5o tons of the in service vehicle which contributed to a lot of failures. Also why the Panther 2/E-50 was going to get commonality of drivetrain with the Tiger Ausf B.

 

[kaiserd]

With a better engine and transmission it would have been at least as good if not better. I am trying to find availability stats but before my hdd failure those I had showed the Tiger ausf B to be more reliable than the Panther. At that time the Soviets had a fair few heavy duty tanks around and they would have been a fair part of the opposition. Panther was designed to be in the 35 to 40 ton class rather than the 45 to 5o tons of the in service vehicle which contributed to a lot of failures. Also why the Panther 2/E-50 was going to get commonality of drivetrain with the Tiger Ausf B.

I think this comes down to an argument about which is the least bad of 2 probably bad ideas.
There are very good reasons that West Germany never want back to either the Panther or the King Tiger.
And while it’s quite fair to note that the Leopard got heavier with additional armor and that the Leopard 2 was intended as a more “balanced” design for its time it is also true that West Germany showed even less interest in the concept of super-heavy tanks than many/ most other major tank producing countries post WW2.
The West German decision makers appear to have considered that class of tank as an expensive impractical dead-end and a lesson learned from WW2 Wehrmacht experience.
In that context the King Tiger was seen as what not to do so absolutely no appetite for bringing it back, particularly by the time that West Germany was reconstituting it’s Army.

 

[Foo Fighter]

In my own very humble opinion, the Budeswehr were merely continuing the conflict trend towards lighter vehicles which was in full swing when the conflict ended. Lots of emphasis was placed on smaller more agile vehicles and TD's.While the E series program was already proving to be a (Mostly) dead end, the development of the Jagdpanzer 38T into the SLIGHTLY larger 38D was about to come to fruition and provide the common chassis the E program was meant to provide. Also, the utilisation of armoured wheeled vehicles for infantry support and recce roles with the potential introduction of the Katchen fully tracked APC and you see a trend that was already in place rather than in development.

The OP of this thread was the Panther as a suitable tank for the Bundeswehr to which I posited the Tiger Ausf B as the drivetrain in that vehicle was developed for the weight rather than the Panther which was intended to be up to ten tons lighter than it ended up being. The drivetrain had to be adapted which resulted in failures, especially in the first two models. In any event, the majority of tank combat at the time period mentioned, would have been much like that experienced during the last phase of the war, defensive positions and ambush tactics so the limited mobility is reduced in importance, to an extent.

 

[GTX]

Potentially relevant tho this discussion:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13518046.2012.730360?needAccess=true&journalCode=fslv20

 

[Archibald]

Still researching this topic, and Oh came across this snippet of interesting info, which I'd also like to put to the forum for further information please:

In late 1940s, Israeli high command was considering starting production of modified Panther but it was never realized.”

(Source:https://www-d0.fnal.gov/~turcot/Armour/pz4.htm)

A friend said he heard something similar, which included Israel attempting to negotiate with Czechoslovakia to purchase their Panther's, left over from the war.

Regards
Pioneer

The Czech also passed Israel their own variant of the Bf-109 - the Avia(s) 99 and 199. And they become the first ever IDF/AF fighters in the 1948 war, with Spitfires.
One of the worst ironies in human history...