Dewoitine D.660 project from 1935

[devoitine520]

do you know something about it?

 

[Stargazer]

Definitely looks American to me. Possibly Bell? Some features do ring a bell... (no pun intended) but I'm at a loss at the moment.

 

[archipeppe]

Definitely looks American to me. Possibly Bell? Some features do ring a bell... (no pun intended) but I'm at a loss at the moment.

Are you sure?


The defensive turret seems to be an Italian design, typical of mid-30's (as for the first BR-20 series) even if I never seen an Italian project like this (but the tail is quite similiar to several Piaggio designs).

 

[Stargazer]

Are you sure?

No, not sure, but since the choice in the title was between US and Britain, I opted for US.

 

[devoitine520]

hello chaps! I wrote US or british, but I'm not sure in my choice... I could be italian ??? , russian or chinese : : : I don't know... Thanks for your interest...

 

[archipeppe]

hello chaps! I wrote US or british, but I'm not sure in my choice... I could be italian ??? , russian or chinese : : : I don't know... Thanks for your interest...

Please have a look to this FIAT Br 20 prototype profile, as you may see it utilize the same turret type as your profile does.
As also you may look to the Piaggio P.50 prototype to see that your profile shares the same tail configuration.


Could it be some Casiraghi preliminary concept for a two engines light bomber in the middle 30's, even if I don't have any clue about it.

 

[Nick Sumner]

I think its French - Dewoitine IIRC,

I will look it up unless someone beats me to the draw!

 

[archipeppe]

I think its French - Dewoitine IIRC,

I will look it up unless someone beats me to the draw!

Why Dewoitine?


It is best known for its single seat and single engine aircraft fighters and, at least, one type of three-engines commercial aircraft (D-332 and 333) rather than any possible two-engines medium bomber, with the only exception of the real ugly D-750.

 

[Jemiba]

My first thought by the shape of the fin was "Bristol", but I would agree with archipeppe: It looks more Italian, judging the
gun turret and especially those windows in the rear fuselage and the fin could be from Piaggio. But perhaps someone
could explain the "ball" behind the gun turret ?
And maybe it would be helpful to know the source of this drawing.

 

[archipeppe]

My first thought by the shape of the fin was "Bristol", but I would agree with archipeppe: It looks more Italian, judging the
gun turret and especially those windows in the rear fuselage and the fin could be from Piaggio. But perhaps someone
could explain the "ball" behind the gun turret ?
And maybe it would be helpful to know the source of this drawing.

The "ball" appears to be (at least for me) an antenna dipole for radio communications.

 

[Jemiba]

The "ball" appears to be (at least for me) an antenna dipole for radio communications.

Well, maybe it's tiltable. It's obviously positioned off centre but nevertheless would impede
the turret in the shown position.

 

[archipeppe]

The "ball" appears to be (at least for me) an antenna dipole for radio communications.

Well, maybe it's tiltable. It's obviously positioned off centre but nevertheless would impede
the turret in the shown position.

I thought the same, more probably it is retractable.
The sketch is very rough but the antenna seems to lay over a sort of hatch, it would fit for this use.

 

[devoitine520]

""And maybe it would be helpful to know the source of this drawing""


I found this drawing on a forum... But there was no name for this plane. So I decided to ask for specialists about secret projects...

 

[archipeppe]

""And maybe it would be helpful to know the source of this drawing""


I found this drawing on a forum... But there was no name for this plane. So I decided to ask for specialists about secret projects...

A French Forum?

 

[Ray]

Looks like a updated version of a Bristol Blenheim.

 

[archipeppe]

Looks like a updated version of a Bristol Blenheim.

Not so much, compare the above unknown design with the actual Blenheims, they are quite different kind of aircrafts indeed.

 

[swallow]

It's a Dewoitine D 660

 

[Schneiderman]

Yes, it is the Dewoitine D.660 project from 1935

 

[archipeppe]

Yes, it is the Dewoitine D.660 project from 1935

Interesting, any furhter info about this project.
Who did designed it?


It seems not to have the typical Dewoitine design.....

 

[devoitine520]

""And maybe it would be helpful to know the source of this drawing""


I found this drawing on a forum... But there was no name for this plane. So I decided to ask for specialists about secret projects...

A French Forum?

Yes a french one...

 

[Schneiderman]

400 kmph at 4000 m
2 x Hispano-Suiza 14 Hars
Span 21.6m
Length 16.75m
1500Kg bomb load, range 900km, or 500Kg, range 2000km
Design by Dewoitine's Bureau d'Etudes, I do not know who was the head of the bureau in 1935

From Les Avions Dewoitine, Raymond Danel et Jean Cuny, Docavia/Editions Lariviere 17

 

[Stargazer]

Just realized I had this scan (I believe from fellow forum member Toura):

 

[Stargazer]

And here's a cleaned-up version of the profile:

 

[Jemiba]

Using the side view and the data from that page of a magazine (Les Ailes ?), I've tried to make
a 3-view. Fuselage width is based on the diameter of the gun turret, bomb bay seems to be divided
into two parts (maybe by the mainspar), gun position in the belly quite probably for a flexible weapon
only (no circular turntable, as I presumed at first). I'm not really sure about the cockpit windows, but
the fuselage seems to have a principally rectangular cross section with rounded edges, so the windows
in the side view are the side windows. The dorsal gun turret may have been retractable, the shape of
the turret roof suggests this in a way. Ailerons, flaps and hingelines of the elevator are just schematic,
with other Dewoitine types (D.720/820) used as rough pattern.
Critics and opinions welcome, who's interested in, can get the cdr-file and change this design on his own .

 

[Stargazer]

Very nice effort Jens! I was hoping to do something like that but didn't know where to begin at. This is awesome.

 

[archipeppe]

Really nice (and also fast) Jemiba!!

 

[Jemiba]

If you have a side view and length and span data, then the biggest part of the
job was done by someone else !

 

[Schneiderman]

Jemiba,

A nice try but I'm afraid not quite right. There is a full 3-view in the book I mentioned in my earlier post

 

[Jemiba]

Couldn't be right, of course ! The best you can achieve with a side view and length and span is about 75 % correctness. I think. I don't
have the Docavia 17, a complete 3-view wasn't mentioned, it's not uncommon, that there only is a side view (in worse cases maybe just a
top, or even just a front view) and, well, it's alway a good exercise ! Remember, that there still are designs, we would be glad to have just a
single blurry photo of something like a windtunnel model without details, or something like that.
It seems, that Docavia 17, "Les Avions Dewoitine" isn’t available anymore, so maybe you can post that 3-view (in low res) here. Apart of
the general interest, it would be especially interesting for me, to see, where I got it wrong, as a clue for the future.

 

[Schneiderman]

3-view by Jean Cuny

 

[archipeppe]

3-view by Jean Cuny

Thank you, anyway I want to endorse Jemiba's effort that was not so far from reality.

 

[Jemiba]

Many thanks Schneiderman ! That actually was a very modern design for the year 1935 !
The turret actually was retractable, solving the problem with the DF antenna and one of
the draftsmen got the cockpit a littlem bit wrong, too ! With the Cuny drawing, the "missing
line" under the windows makes more sense, so I would believe in the latter one.

 

[archipeppe]

Many thanks Schneiderman ! That actually was a very modern design for the year 1935 !
The turret actually was retractable, solving the problem with the DF antenna and one of
the draftsmen got the cockpit a littlem bit wrong, too ! With the Cuny drawing, the "missing
line" under the windows makes more sense, so I would believe in the latter one.

Indeed I still see some Italian design features on such aircraft, it's not the typical sharp Dewoitine design of that age.
I recall that some Italian aircraft designer worked in France in those years, like Filippo Zappata.

Obviously, I have nothing against French designer (I consider Marcel Dassault one of the best ever) only that this aircraft doesn't match with the average French design of mid 30's.

 

[devoitine520]

Thanks to everybody for your help... I'm french, retired helicopter pilot in french army, but I didn't know this plane, this project...


Have a nice day.

 

[blackkite]

Wow I experienced a helicopter only once in Yokohama city.
I felt that it's a giant elevator. Climb rate was very large. She stopped midair and turned. I surprised very much.

 

[archipeppe]

Thanks to everybody for your help... I'm french, retired helicopter pilot in french army, but I didn't know this plane, this project...


Have a nice day.

C'est bon, bienvenue avec nous....
Pas d'helicopter in mon experience de vol, ma Je essais le vol parabolique in micropesanteur.

 

[Schneiderman]

Maybe designed by Robert Castello, he was Spanish

 

[Jemiba]

Maybe designed by Robert Castello, he was Spanish

Good clue !
From Christian Castello "Planeurs - Avions" (regarding Robert Castello):
"Seront étudiés principalement les avions de combat de combat D420 - D660 et de
transport D338 - D620 - D342"
(Main part of the design work were the military aircraft D420 - D660 and tranports
D338 - D620 - D342)
I hope the translation is approximately ok.

 

[Stargazer]

I hope the translation is approximately ok.

That's perfectly alright, my friend. So it WAS Castello. Nice find.

 

[archipeppe]

I hope the translation is approximately ok.

That's perfectly alright, my friend. So it WAS Castello. Nice find.

This explain exctly the latin design....