Debate about Polikarpov and Stalinism

[Wurger]

hi guys,

excellent contributions. That "Duck", Taranov, crushed me!
Stargazer, wasn`t Yakovlev who brushed off Polikarpov? Lavoschkin was also a victim of this detrimental guy!

 

[redstar72]

wasn`t Yakovlev who brushed off Polikarpov? Lavoschkin was also a victim of this detrimental guy!

WHAT?!! :-\

No, he wasn't . If somebody "brushed off" Polikarpov, that's Polikarpov himself who thied to develop great number of projects at the same time, instead of concentration on some of them. Moreover, his projects were mostly a bit adventurous - using undeveloped prototype engines, etc. And, of course, series of disasters with I-180 and SPB aircraft also dropped his reputation down.

Lavochkin?.. What do you mean? What's wrong with Lavochkin?

 

[unclejim]

Yakovlev had a relative high up in the government and many better desigers and designs were bypassed because of this nepotism.

 

[redstar72]

Yakovlev had a relative high up in the government and many better desigers and designs were bypassed because of this nepotism.

This is a popular myth of post-Perestroika years. Can you name these "better designs" or, even more, designers?
These "anti-Yakovlev geeks" even consider THIS as a "high-promising design thrown out by the evil Yakovlev"!

The Polikarpov's I-185 wasn't the best WW2 Soviet fighter as these geeks proclaim. That was Yakovlev who created the best one - it was Yak-9U which you can see on my avatar .

Also there was Mikoyan I-211 whiich seems to be the best one with radial engine; and it also wasn't in series. Do you think that Mikoyan, whose brother was Deputy Premier in the government that time, could be also a "victim" of Yakovlev's pressure?..

 

[Arjen]

Yakovlev had a relative high up in the government and many better desigers and designs were bypassed because of this nepotism.

This is a popular myth of post-Perestroika years. Can you name these "better designs" or, even more, designers?
These "anti-Yakovlev geeks" even consider THIS as a "high-promising design thrown out by the evil Yakovlev"!

The Polikarpov's I-185 wasn't the best WW2 Soviet fighter as these geeks proclaim. That was Yakovlev who created the best one - it was Yak-9U which you can see on my avatar .

Also there was Mikoyan I-211 whiich seems to be the best one with radial engine; and it also wasn't in series. Do you think that Mikoyan, whose brother was Deputy Premier in the government that time, could be also a "victim" of Yakovlev's pressure?..

You might want to read 'Stalin's Aviation Gulag' by L.L. Kerber. Yakovlev thrived in circumstances where people like Tupolev, Petlyakov, Polikarpov, Myasishchev, Korolyev spent years of their lives in prison, or prison-like factories.

 

[redstar72]

You might want to read 'Stalin's Aviation Gulag' by L.L. Kerber. Yakovlev thrived in circumstances where people like Tupolev, Petlyakov, Polikarpov, Myasishchev, Korolyev spent years of their lives in prison, or prison-like factories.

And what with it? ???

"Yakovlev thrived" - only Yakovlev? Why not Lavochkin, or Ilyushin, or Sukhoi (who became the Chief Designer of his own OKB after Tupolev was arrested), or many-many else? And open any biography of Polikarpov, please! He actually was under arrest, but it was about 10 years before - from October 24, 1929 to June 28, 1931 (so, "years of his life" were actually about one and a half year). Which way is Yakovlev connected with this? In 1929, Yakovlew was only 23 years old designer of 3 types of sport aircraft and two gliders, not more known than, for example, Gribovsky or Rafaelyanz! And if you want to speak about years 1938-41 (i.e. when "people like Tupolev, Petlyakov, Myasishchev, Korolyev spent years of their lives...") - you can see that Polikarpov also "thrived in these circumstances"!

About Kerber's book (which original title is "Tupolev's Sharaga") - there are a lot of statements there which are... well, more than doubtful. For example the story about "how the horrible Lavrenty Beria wanted a 4-engined monster dive bomber, and how the brave Tupolev refused" - looks to be a complete fiction which has nothing common with the actual story of ANT-57 ("PB") known from the documents. Some people think that this book even wasn't actually written by Kerber.

 

[Arjen]

The point I'm trying to make is that for every Yakovlev or Ilyushin you'd care to mention, you'd find the same number or more of people who were imprisoned on spurious charges - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Polikarpov, Myasishchev. That qualifies aircraft-designer as a high-risk occupation. Apart from the people who actually died in prison, Sergei Korolev stands out: he was imprisoned for almost six years, of which months were spent in a Kolyma labour camp - where he lost most of his teeth and was lucky to survive at all.

Looking back, I am absolutely amazed how these people continued to work for the good of their country.

 

[Wurger]

Hello,

I will not quote any arguable statements from this thread, because they are so many. My source is well before the fall of the Soviet Union (Bill Gunston), who cites eastern bloc sources (post-Stalinist, I am sure), and we may include Alekseyev as a bright engineer who also suffered upon Yakovlev. This late man was credited with the fall of such aircraft as the Sukhoi Su-9/11 and I-212 (and its incredibly sophisticated family) on the grounds that they were "another copy of the Me262". The fact is that Yakovlev and its creativity faded away in the jet era, especially after the death of Stalin. And that`s a point. Nevertheless, soviet aviation is not my primary interest. I may be wrong (but I don`t think so ;D )!

 

[redstar72]

Hello!
Of course this topic is about Polikarpov's projects. Not about arrests, not about Yakovlev or something else. But I think I must answer to colleagues Arjen and Wurger. Excuse me if something is wrong.

The point I'm trying to make is that for every Yakovlev or Ilyushin you'd care to mention, you'd find the same number or more of people who were imprisoned on spurious charges - Tupolev, Petlyakov, Polikarpov, Myasishchev. That qualifies aircraft-designer as a high-risk occupation.

Do you really think so? OK, let’s try to count…

Antonov, Arkhangelsky, Bakshaev, Bedunkovich, Belyaev, Beriev, Bisnovat, Bolkhovitinov, Borovkov/Florov, Cheranovsky, Chetverikov, Dubrovin, Gribovsky, Grushin, Ilyushin, Kamov, Kocherigin, Kozlov, Kurbala, Lavochkin/Gorbunov/Gudkov, Mikoyan/Gurevich, Moskalyov, Nikitin, Pashinin, Polikarpov, Rafaelyanz, Rentel, Samsonov, Scherbakov, Silvansky, Shavrov, Shevchenko, Sukhoi, Tairov, Tsybin, Yakovlev, Yatsenko, Yermolaev. Probably it isn’t the complete list. I think I didn’t remember them all.

All these people were Chief Designers at late ‘30s – early ‘40s in the USSR. You can see here the “great names” (marked out) and not so great names; of course there were more and less talented, more and less experienced, more and less successful among them. But they all projected and built aircraft of their own designs. And nobody of them was imprisoned.
Who WAS imprisoned? If we’ll count those who designed aircraft of their own – Tupolev of course, then Bartini, Chizhevsky, Kalinin, Nieman. Petlyakov and Myasischev weren’t in this category: they were only Tupolev’s subordinates before being arrested. You can say it sounds sacrilegious, but it’s still a fact – their arrest turned a chance to realize themselves in designing their own projects! I don’t mention Korolyov, because at the time of his arrest he already wasn’t aircraft designer at all: he worked on rockets in the RNII.

Were ALL they victims of spurious charges? Actually, we don’t know!.. Of course you can say: “How can you doubt?! Any doubts here are sacrilegious!” But we need FACTS, not emotions – don’t we? Even if somebody is a technical genius, it doesn’t mean he cannot be involved in anything bad. Somehow the original documents of Tupolev’s case aren’t published until now. We only can read in literature that “accusations were typical, like “damage-making” and espionage”. But why can’t we see true documents? If he was totally innocent, what‘s the reason for keeping them secret?
(Of course I know that Tupolev was rehabilitated in 1955. But this could be a political act as well).

Returning to Polikarpov - his arrest in 1929 is totally different story, which took place in totally different era. And we must understand one thing: that time Polikarpov wasn’t yet the great man we know today! Before 1929 he designed just a few aircraft, and only ONE of them – the I-3 was relatively successful! (Also the R-5, but it just finished the tests. I don’t count the R-1, as it was only DH-9 copy and nothing more). The first Polikarpov’s own design – IL-400 fighter prototype had its CG at 52 % of MAC. It crashed on August 15, 1923 during first flight attempt, and it was true wonder that test pilot K. Artseulov survived. The 2I-N1 two-seat fighter destroyed in the air on March 31, 1926, during maximum speed test flight, killing test pilot V. Filippov and a timekeeper. Even the first prototype of what became the legendary U-2 (Po-2), arisen in 1927, was almost unflyable – until its wings were completely redesigned…
Today, knowing the whole Polikarpov’s career, we regard all this only mistakes caused by lack of experience. But imagine how could it be interpreted by the contemporaries! They really could consider Polikarpov a “damage-maker”, it surely didn’t look like a nonsense!

the people who actually died in prison

Who are they? I know Konstantin Kalinin only, and I'm sorry but I can’t regard him an innocent victim... Try to imagine: the K-7, a giant, extremely expensive aircraft, destroys in the air killing 16 people onboard… Of course I don’t think he intentionally made that mistake in his calculations. But I also can understand those who deemed he must bear responsibility for this. Who else, if not the designer?.. Designing aircraft is not a joke, it’s very serious...

Looking back, I am absolutely amazed how these people continued to work for the good of their country.

Is it so strange – to be a patriot of your Motherland? Is it necessary to become a traitor for everybody who met some difficult days in his life?

we may include Alekseyev as a bright engineer who also suffered upon Yakovlev. This late man was credited with the fall of such aircraft as the Sukhoi Su-9/11 and I-212 (and its incredibly sophisticated family) on the grounds that they were "another copy of the Me262".

Oh my god! How is Yakovlev connected with this?.. He left Vice Minister chair on July 8, 1946, of his own free will. All the aircraft you mentioned arose later! For example, Su-9 was first flown on November 13, 1946; Su-11 on May 28, 1947; Alexeev’s I-211 in late autumn 1947 – only couple of months before MiG-15! The I-212 was built already in summer 1948! Do you really think that these straight-wing designs had prospects in the MiG-15 era?

The fact is that Yakovlev and its creativity faded away in the jet era, especially after the death of Stalin.

And what does it mean, to your mind? As for me, it means only one thing: that the bald, fat man with a shoe in his hand ;D , known as great lover of maize and rockets, pulled him away like many others whom he considered “Stalin’s guys”…



Don't forget, this man nearly destroyed Soviet military aviation at all!

And you say, Yakovlev’s creativity faded away?.. Who designed Yak-25, the first successful all-weather interceptor in the USSR? And the first and only Soviet VTOLs? And the excellent Yak-40 regional jet, probably the world’s progenitor of this popular class?...

Nevertheless, soviet aviation is not my primary interest. I may be wrong (but I don`t think so ;D )!

But Soviet aviation is my primary interest. So I think that rather you are mistaken, than I am .

 

[Arjen]

Antonov, Arkhangelsky, Bakshaev, Bedunkovich, Belyaev, Beriev, Bisnovat, Bolkhovitinov, Borovkov/Florov, Cheranovsky, Chetverikov, Dubrovin, Gribovsky, Grushin, Ilyushin, Kamov, Kocherigin, Kozlov, Kurbala, Lavochkin/Gorbunov/Gudkov, Mikoyan/Gurevich, Moskalyov, Nikitin, Pashinin, Polikarpov, Rafaelyanz, Rentel, Samsonov, Scherbakov, Silvansky, Shavrov, Shevchenko, Sukhoi, Tairov, Tsybin, Yakovlev, Yatsenko, Yermolaev. Probably it isn’t the complete list. I think I didn’t remember them all.

All these people were Chief Designers at late ‘30s – early ‘40s in the USSR.

Being awarded Chief Designer title meant being viewed favourably by the regime. Falling out of favour was possible - as Tupolev and Kalinin found out. You mention 42 names. Designers unlucky enough to be arrested before establishing their own design bureau would be less likely to have a successful career upon release - if they survived imprisonment. In 1937, the entire staff of TsAGI was arrested on charges of sabotage, espionage and aiding the Russian Fascist Party. Helping the Germans design the Bf110 by providing them with drawings was thrown in for good measure. Somewhere along the line, people realised shutting down the premier aeronautical research establishment was a singularly bad idea, so some prisoners were returned to their facilties which had been turned into a luxury prison. Others were not so lucky. Again, I mention Sergei Korolyov. He was marched off to Kolyma and nearly died there; afterwards he was a driving force behind the Soviet space program. Millions died in the Gulag and never had a chance

– to be a patriot of your Motherland?

never mind being a driving force behind anything.

Were ALL they victims of spurious charges? Actually, we don’t know!.. Of course you can say: “How can you doubt?! Any doubts here are sacrilegious!” But we need FACTS, not emotions – don’t we? Even if somebody is a technical genius, it doesn’t mean he cannot be involved in anything bad. Somehow the original documents of Tupolev’s case aren’t published until now. We only can read in literature that “accusations were typical, like “damage-making” and espionage”. But why can’t we see true documents? If he was totally innocent, what‘s the reason for keeping them secret?
(Of course I know that Tupolev was rehabilitated in 1955. But this could be a political act as well).

It is notoriously difficult to prove the non-existence of documents. I would be very interested in documents that support the allegations against Tupolev and the TsAGI staff. In some judicial systems, innocence is assumed until guilt is proven. The arrest of the TsAGI staff seemed like the product of the opposite tradition.

They really could consider Polikarpov a “damage-maker”, it surely didn’t look like a nonsense!

So you throw the man in jail. Or, in the case of Kalinin, simply shoot him. That's harsh.

the people who actually died in prison

Who are they?

Like I said, millions died in the Gulag. Many never had a chance to prove their abilities or gain any fame.
In my opinion, being educated was enough to get people into trouble. I have a background in biology, the story of Trofim Lysenko served me and my fellow students as a reminder that academic freedom is not something to take for granted; it has to be won and defended. Lysenko preached the heritability of acquired characteristics. He claimed to have developed an agricultural technique which tripled or quadrupled crop yield by exposing seed to high humidity and low temperature. His claims were bogus, but fitted in with Stalin's ideas that heredity had only a limited role in human development, that humans were positively malleable to a greater extent than supported by classical genetics. Academicians brave enough to voice their dissent with Lysenko, like Georgii Karpechenko and Georgii Nadson, were executed, or, like Nikolai Vavilov, imprisoned. Vavilov died in prison.
I was familiar with Lysenkoism, also with the Great Purge that robbed the Soviet Army of many of its higher officers on the eve of the war. Then I read L.L. Kerber's book. I was disturbed, but not surprised by the callousness of the aircraft designers' treatment. It fitted in with the callousness with which Stalin's regime treated many of the finest minds of, as you put it, the Motherland.
I have nothing but admiration for the people who, despite their sorry treatment by their government, continued to work for their country.
I have nothing but contempt for their jailers.

EDIT- fixed some typos

 

[Stargazer]

Please folks, this is a very interesting topic and I hope you can keep it all civilized...

I very much respect everyone's knowledge here when it comes to aviation, but on the subject of Soviet politics I really have a feeling some have a more balanced view than others... :

Loving one's "motherland" (no capitals for me, it is not a divinity!) does not mean you are ready to do anything that the authorities demand of you. Civil disobedience is an essential part of our human rights, and should be encouraged. But when repression is too strong, you have to make a choice: obey and hope for better times, or die. I think Arjen's final words say it all:

"I have nothing but admiration for the people who, despite their sorry treatment by their government, continued to work for their country.
I have nothing but contempt for their jailers."

 

[flateric]

You can say it sounds sacrilegious, but it’s still a fact
– their arrest turned a chance to realize themselves in designing their own projects!

holy happiness! I'm pretty sure you would improve your own results and develop many of your unrealized dreams after tomorrow you are arrested and lose your teeth for the beginning. you can start right in the morning

I don’t mention Korolyov, because at the time of his arrest he already wasn’t
aircraft designer at all: he worked on rockets in the RNII.

so what? doesn't fit your list?

Were ALL they victims of spurious charges? Actually, we don’t know!.. Of course you can say: “How can you doubt?! Any doubts here are sacrilegious!” But we need FACTS, not emotions – don’t we? Even if somebody is a technical genius, it doesn’t mean he cannot be involved in anything bad. Somehow the original documents of Tupolev’s case aren’t published until now. We only can read in literature that “accusations were typical, like “damage-making” and espionage”. But why can’t we see true documents? If he was totally innocent, what‘s the reason for keeping them secret?

dozens of future world famous aircraft and space designers involved in anti-government plot. hundreds total. perfect!

But why can’t we see true documents? If he was totally innocent, what‘s the reason for keeping them secret? (Of course I know that Tupolev was rehabilitated in 1955. But this could be a political act as well).

I don't know why you can't see them. Many others did.





Tupolev was selling agent of French intelligence since 1924? Was a leader of anti-Soviet saboteur group?
tell this fairytales to someone else!

 

[redstar72]

Tupolev was selling agent of French intelligence since 1924? Was a leader of anti-Soviet saboteur group?
tell this fairytales to someone else!

Where did I wrote that he was? I didn't write nothing similar, and I don't believe in these, as you called, "fairytales". I wrote only one thing: that we need to see the original documents to make our reasonable opinion. And I think all this story needs detailed research.

Thank you very much for the photo. But this is only the verdict, and it would be very interesting to discover all the materials of the investigation and trial. For example: who testified against Tupolev? Who is that Morgulis which allegedly was a "link" between Tupolev and the French intelligence? There could be many other questions...

Did these documents survive? Were they published anywhere?

Yes, I really don't believe that one day Stalin suddenly decided to deal with the best aircraft designer(s). That's nonsense. Some causes for all this must exist... but what?

And even this verdict proves there is plenty of myths about this story. For example, the colleagues in this topic posted that the main accusation was that Tupolev "sold" Bf 110 drawings to the Germans. The "Russian Fascist party" was also mentioned. But you posted the verdict now - and there's no such things in it (and the Germans aren't mention at all, only the French...)


All this still needs research. That's all I wanted to say. Are you disagree?

 

[flateric]

Sasha, If I will insist that you are a giant mishroom, you won't need to go into deep research into reasons that caused me to make such conclusion, to say that I'm idiot.
When I see court decision saying that Tupolev was a FRENCH SPY SINCE 1924 and LEADER OF SABOTEUR GROUP, and see other decisions copy-pasted from this, I'm pretty sure that investigators were driven by some other reasons than finding a truth - without digging into archives.
Is that clear?

 

[Stargazer]

Yes, I really don't believe that one day Stalin suddenly decided to deal with the best aircraft designer(s). That's nonsense. Some causes for all this must exist... but what?

redstar72, I personally don't think one should be trying to find any amount of common sense or articulated reasoning from a despot who got millions of his countrymen deported and/or slaughtered over a three-year period (1936-1938). The guy was a disaster for his country, and almost 80 years on, the damage that he made can still be felt.

Dictators use people up to the point when they see them as a potential (real or imagined) source of danger. And then anything can happen, and usually the worst.