De Schelde Aircraft Projects and Prototypes
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
Another excellent find Hesham.
As 'Toon' speculates, this would be very closely related to the Pander S IV Postjager/Panderjager. TE Slot originally conceived of what became the Panderjager as a twin-engined bomber (using 2 x 700hp Wright Cyclones instead of 3 x 450hp Whirlwinds).
Theo Slot obviously reworked his "Pechjager" back into a twin-engined aircraft. (I've knocked together a very crude sideview comparison, attached). I assume that these engines are 1085 hp Daimler-Benz DB 600G (as per Slot's S.21 twin-boom fighter).
However, I doubt that this design is for a bomber. In view of the dorsal cannon and nose turret, I suspect that this aircraft is actually a luchtkruiser concept (like the early Fokker T.V studies) instead.
Another excellent find Hesham.
As 'Toon' speculates, this would be very closely related to the Pander S IV Postjager/Panderjager. TE Slot originally conceived of what became the Panderjager as a twin-engined bomber (using 2 x 700hp Wright Cyclones instead of 3 x 450hp Whirlwinds).
Theo Slot obviously reworked his "Pechjager" back into a twin-engined aircraft. (I've knocked together a very crude sideview comparison, attached). I assume that these engines are 1085 hp Daimler-Benz DB 600G (as per Slot's S.21 twin-boom fighter).
However, I doubt that this design is for a bomber. In view of the dorsal cannon and nose turret, I suspect that this aircraft is actually a luchtkruiser concept (like the early Fokker T.V studies) instead.
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
[Added] It's not the S.19 project. Lark says that the S.19 was a Fokker ontwerp 193/G.1 look-alike -- a twin-engined, twin-boomed mid-wing 'jachtkruiser'.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5280.0.html
It may be the De Schelde S.19 but there is a something of a puzzle ...
Maveric had this to say: "There was also the de Schelde S.19, a heavy fighter project based on the Pander Postjager. Photos are known to exist of a model!"
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2742.msg21895/
But F. Gerdessen on the Luftwafe Experten board says: "... the S.19, a heavy fighter of the G.1 model, all-metal with nosewheel". It's the nosewheel and all-metal bits that worry me.
[Added] It's not the S.19 project. Lark says that the S.19 was a Fokker ontwerp 193/G.1 look-alike -- a twin-engined, twin-boomed mid-wing 'jachtkruiser'.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5280.0.html
Maveric had this to say: "There was also the de Schelde S.19, a heavy fighter project based on the Pander Postjager. Photos are known to exist of a model!"
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2742.msg21895/
But F. Gerdessen on the Luftwafe Experten board says: "... the S.19, a heavy fighter of the G.1 model, all-metal with nosewheel". It's the nosewheel and all-metal bits that worry me.
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
Hi Hesham,
Not a bomber but another TE Slot-designed Panderjager derivative. The move to a mid-wing layout is curious and, although a larger aircraft, it carried only four passengers. Presumably, the centre section held a mail compartment.
From Flight:
"Here Slot designed a development of the S4 [S.IV], again a three-engine monoplane, midwing this time, with a small passenger accommodation of four, if my memory serves me right. This machine was never built, however. R. MULDERS"
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1947/1947%20-%200735.html
On the airwarfareforum, Jan de Boer adds:
"This was not a bomber project !. In fact it is the model and mock-up for a long distance airliner. The idea was that it should carry 4 passengers and post on the route from Amsterdam to Paramaribo (Dutch West Indies) with a speed of 370 km/hour and a range of 3500-5500 km. It seems that KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) was very interested in this project, but the German invasion put an end to these plans. More informatiom about this project can be found in: H. Hooftman, Scheldemusch en scheldemeeuw, Nederlandse vliegtuig encyclopedie, Bennekom, 1978, 108-11."
Hi Hesham,
Not a bomber but another TE Slot-designed Panderjager derivative. The move to a mid-wing layout is curious and, although a larger aircraft, it carried only four passengers. Presumably, the centre section held a mail compartment.
From Flight:
"Here Slot designed a development of the S4 [S.IV], again a three-engine monoplane, midwing this time, with a small passenger accommodation of four, if my memory serves me right. This machine was never built, however. R. MULDERS"
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1947/1947%20-%200735.html
On the airwarfareforum, Jan de Boer adds:
"This was not a bomber project !. In fact it is the model and mock-up for a long distance airliner. The idea was that it should carry 4 passengers and post on the route from Amsterdam to Paramaribo (Dutch West Indies) with a speed of 370 km/hour and a range of 3500-5500 km. It seems that KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) was very interested in this project, but the German invasion put an end to these plans. More informatiom about this project can be found in: H. Hooftman, Scheldemusch en scheldemeeuw, Nederlandse vliegtuig encyclopedie, Bennekom, 1978, 108-11."
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
In that site,the member LVA-40 suggested a solution;
Look at the engine cowling: maybe I have to get another pair of eyes, but on that cowling is written De Schelde II. Schelde, "S", II=11 means Schelde S.11. The Dutch LVA want only planes with Rolls Royce Kestrel engines, so this model can be projected between 1933 and 1935. The Schelde S.12 is from March 1935.
http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/f15-overige-vliegtuigbouwers-other-aircraftmanufacturers/schelde-unknown-bomber-24086/#post35805
hesham said:
In that site,the member LVA-40 suggested a solution;
Look at the engine cowling: maybe I have to get another pair of eyes, but on that cowling is written De Schelde II. Schelde, "S", II=11 means Schelde S.11. The Dutch LVA want only planes with Rolls Royce Kestrel engines, so this model can be projected between 1933 and 1935. The Schelde S.12 is from March 1935.
http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/forums/f15-overige-vliegtuigbouwers-other-aircraftmanufacturers/schelde-unknown-bomber-24086/#post35805
Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
Hi,
In the book on the Pander S.4 by Hugo Hooftman, there is another picture of the commercial aircraft mock-up.
There is also a picture of the two-engine model with "1068" registration, reportedly dated 5-2-1935.
Finally there is a drawing of a military version of the S.4.
Adrien
Hi,
In the book on the Pander S.4 by Hugo Hooftman, there is another picture of the commercial aircraft mock-up.
There is also a picture of the two-engine model with "1068" registration, reportedly dated 5-2-1935.
Finally there is a drawing of a military version of the S.4.
Adrien
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Re: De Schelde bomber aircraft
Rough translation
The House Schelder construct on plans provide by K.L.M. (Royal Dutch Airlines)
for a Tri-motor monoplane with retractable landing gear
Equipped with three engine Wright "Cyclone" each with 1000 HP
destine to servise in South Atlantic routes
The maximum speed is 415 km/h, cruse speed at 55% of full throttle is 335 km/h.
range of aircraft is 5000 km in headwinds of 60 km/h
payload is 1600 kg
That Characteristic are superabundant for South Atlantic routes
it correspond more for North atlantic routes with stopovers at azores and Ireland
and it got more similar Characteristic of aircraft destiny for servis without stopover.
Rough translation
The House Schelder construct on plans provide by K.L.M. (Royal Dutch Airlines)
for a Tri-motor monoplane with retractable landing gear
Equipped with three engine Wright "Cyclone" each with 1000 HP
destine to servise in South Atlantic routes
The maximum speed is 415 km/h, cruse speed at 55% of full throttle is 335 km/h.
range of aircraft is 5000 km in headwinds of 60 km/h
payload is 1600 kg
That Characteristic are superabundant for South Atlantic routes
it correspond more for North atlantic routes with stopovers at azores and Ireland
and it got more similar Characteristic of aircraft destiny for servis without stopover.
Jos Heyman
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The book Lark refers to provides a bit more information on pages 40 and 41. Btw, the book is by Pieter Van Wijngaarden.
Indeed it was intended as a mail aircraft for the route to Paramaribo and the idea was advanced by KLM Director Plesman in 1937.
De Schelde came forward with 4 designs. The first of these had 4 engines and would have a crew of four and would be able to carry four passengers. The book identifies it as Design No.76, it was to be powered by Jumo 5 engines, had a span of 24 m and a length of 17 m. There is no picture of this design in the book.
Eventually the selected design was a three engine design made of duraluminium - the design we have been discussion here so far. It would use component of the DC-3 and, apparently, Douglas had given the OK for this. Plesman announced this to Fokker on 21 April 1937, who were not too happy. Two months later Fokker managed to get the European licence for DC-3 parts and they informed KLM that they were not prepared to cooperate with the KLM project. On 18 December 1937, KLM informed De Schelde of this, and that was the end of the project.
The book does not give an indication that the project was derived from the Postjager, and indeed it was bigger than the Postjager. But since Slot, the designer of the Postjager had moved to De Schelde in 1935, we can expect that he had some hand in the design.
Indeed it was intended as a mail aircraft for the route to Paramaribo and the idea was advanced by KLM Director Plesman in 1937.
De Schelde came forward with 4 designs. The first of these had 4 engines and would have a crew of four and would be able to carry four passengers. The book identifies it as Design No.76, it was to be powered by Jumo 5 engines, had a span of 24 m and a length of 17 m. There is no picture of this design in the book.
Eventually the selected design was a three engine design made of duraluminium - the design we have been discussion here so far. It would use component of the DC-3 and, apparently, Douglas had given the OK for this. Plesman announced this to Fokker on 21 April 1937, who were not too happy. Two months later Fokker managed to get the European licence for DC-3 parts and they informed KLM that they were not prepared to cooperate with the KLM project. On 18 December 1937, KLM informed De Schelde of this, and that was the end of the project.
The book does not give an indication that the project was derived from the Postjager, and indeed it was bigger than the Postjager. But since Slot, the designer of the Postjager had moved to De Schelde in 1935, we can expect that he had some hand in the design.
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Jos Heyman said:
An interesting clue. Is there any hint, which components should be used ?
Have compared the drawings we have here with the DC-3 and the only component I can see
similarities may be the landing gear. Of course, if, say, the spar or other internal parts would
have been used, that probably won't show up in a 3-view.
No more info about Jens . Only a part
of a sentence ...a substantial number of DC-3 parts was planned for use...
The use of DC-3 parts was blocked off by Fokker who was at the time
exclusive distributor of Douglas parts in Europe.
The new Dutch book is mainly a factory history. In my humble opinion
for the aircraft part,the writer drew heavy on the the Vol.7 about De Schelde -November 1978 of the
Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie....
of a sentence ...a substantial number of DC-3 parts was planned for use...
The use of DC-3 parts was blocked off by Fokker who was at the time
exclusive distributor of Douglas parts in Europe.
The new Dutch book is mainly a factory history. In my humble opinion
for the aircraft part,the writer drew heavy on the the Vol.7 about De Schelde -November 1978 of the
Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie....
Very interesting. I'd like to know more about this book and the earlier one in the Nederlandse Vliegtuig Encyclopedie series. For example, are there pictures of the S.12, other than the one already in Wesselink & Postma ?
Adrien
Adrien
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The very first posts of this thread already show this design here, with a very good
attempt of a reconstruction by Apophenia. Thankfully Paul ("lark") supported us with
high-res copies and some additional model photos, so Arjen and me had a base to ruminate
about it. Those thoughts can be found in the attached notes. As even the purpose of this
design isn't completely clear, so aren't several details, of course. If someone can shed
new light on it (maybe the designation ?), he's warmly welcome.
The colour profiles are based on the schemes of contemporary Dutch aircraft (Fokker T.V,
G.I and D.XXI) and pure speculation, especially details like registration or squadron
insignia, of course.
attempt of a reconstruction by Apophenia. Thankfully Paul ("lark") supported us with
high-res copies and some additional model photos, so Arjen and me had a base to ruminate
about it. Those thoughts can be found in the attached notes. As even the purpose of this
design isn't completely clear, so aren't several details, of course. If someone can shed
new light on it (maybe the designation ?), he's warmly welcome.
The colour profiles are based on the schemes of contemporary Dutch aircraft (Fokker T.V,
G.I and D.XXI) and pure speculation, especially details like registration or squadron
insignia, of course.
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Avimimus
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Very beautiful work on a very interesting aircraft.
My own intuitions based on the wind tunnel model had a cannon in the nose position (As well as the dorsal turret).
On the other hand, that also had the front turret and cockpit windscreen be armoured (which is probably less plausible).
My own intuitions based on the wind tunnel model had a cannon in the nose position (As well as the dorsal turret).
On the other hand, that also had the front turret and cockpit windscreen be armoured (which is probably less plausible).
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Hi,
the Scheldemusch airplane was given the drawing number 50,or you can say
Ontwerp 50,the De Schelde company used the series from 1 up to 80s or 90s
as I know,and maybe more.
https://modelbrouwers.nl/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=47969
the Scheldemusch airplane was given the drawing number 50,or you can say
Ontwerp 50,the De Schelde company used the series from 1 up to 80s or 90s
as I know,and maybe more.
https://modelbrouwers.nl/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=47969
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According to several sources 'de Scheldemusch ' never received
an official De Schelde designation.
The number 50 is not a De Schelde one but perhaps the number
given bij the modelbouwers to their illustration (sept. 1997 ?)
an official De Schelde designation.
The number 50 is not a De Schelde one but perhaps the number
given bij the modelbouwers to their illustration (sept. 1997 ?)
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There was a seaplane version of the Scheldemusch called the Scheldemeeuw:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1961004-The-Scheldemeeuw-a-1930s-Dutch-flying-boat-in-Depron#post25631959
Pictures and drawings there.
https://youtu.be/HYI5g2FYImc
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1961004-The-Scheldemeeuw-a-1930s-Dutch-flying-boat-in-Depron#post25631959
Pictures and drawings there.
https://youtu.be/HYI5g2FYImc
Concerning the airliner Amsterdam - Paramaribo.
Its difficult to say which design this is, because there were two, one by Slot and the other by Van Lammeren who worked for the KLM.
There some differences, but both three engined
Jjr
Its difficult to say which design this is, because there were two, one by Slot and the other by Van Lammeren who worked for the KLM.
There some differences, but both three engined
Jjr
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hesham said:
The 4-engined Jae-4302 was a second concept by Theo Slot for de Schelde. I think Jjr is distinguishing between Slot's trimotor Jae-4301 design and an unrelated 3-engined concept by Ir. TJW van Lammeren of KLM to the same requirement.
De Schelde designs situation is very complicated..
As far as I found in several printed sources the 2 Jae drawings were designs made by Ir.(engineer) Schipper
in the Breda department of De Schelde during 1944.
Perhaps "Jae" are the intials of a draftsman who made the drawing..
The 4 engined de Schelde longrange transport was indeed a T.Slot design for a KLM request.
The engines were arranged in push-pull mode.
I must have a drawing in an old 1973 Dutch Cockpit magazine...
As far as I found in several printed sources the 2 Jae drawings were designs made by Ir.(engineer) Schipper
in the Breda department of De Schelde during 1944.
Perhaps "Jae" are the intials of a draftsman who made the drawing..
The 4 engined de Schelde longrange transport was indeed a T.Slot design for a KLM request.
The engines were arranged in push-pull mode.
I must have a drawing in an old 1973 Dutch Cockpit magazine...
