Crécerelle / Kestrel & 'Harrier'

[zen]

What if Breguet and M.Wibult had been able to join forces with Hawkers on the P1127?

Could we see the AdA join the Kestrel evaluation team?

Could HSA and Breguet jointly propose a solution to NMBR.3?

Could this trump Dassault's Mirage IIIV to get French backing and a Anglo-French P.1154 Harrier be the product?

 

[Archibald]

Yep, Wibault was a huge missed opportunity for the French to play a card and jump into the nascent Harrier bandwagon.

Michel Wibault - Wikiwand

Michel Henri Marie Joseph Wibault was a French aircraft designer. He was a strong advocate of metal construction, and his airliners were important in the develo...

www.wikiwand.com

In passing, could have helped Breguet even if long term their fate is probably sealed - private cannon fodder to Dassault combat aircraft division.
Having a foothold into naval combat aircraft with Etendard IV Dassault would probably hate the idea, and it would also nip Jaguar in the bud some years down the line. And thus Harriers would fight in Africa 1977-1987 and GW1 and Kosovo in place of Jaguars and along Mirage F1s.
If Dassault doesn't screw the party, Harriers in 1971 are a go to replace the Etendard IV: not only on Foch and Clem, but Arromanches, and perhaps Jeanne d'Arc (they did it OTL, a landing there, Flight International once had a picture).

Long term: French Harriers, why not ? they could provide Arromanches Alizés and choppers with limited air cover.

The gargantuan Mirage III-V was not viable - not with ten engines (TF30 and 8*RB-162 and an APU). Balzac V demonstrator with 8*RB-108s probably never happens.

P.1154 between RN and RAF was already an horror, throwing the french into it would only made matters worse. P.1127 on the other hand...

This mean that Dassault is free to go STOL (F-series) and VG (G-family) four years earlier than OTL - 1962 rather than 1966.

 

[zen]

Hmmmm.... Exocet armed Sea Harrier.....
Magic armed Sea Harrier....

However...

Arguably with Breguet as part of a Anglo-French collaboration, NMBR.3 process might never have awarded Dassault's Mirage IIIV 'joint' winner status and so something like P.1154 might have had a lot more potential orders and licensing at stake.

This would make it much harder to cancel and yet if a MN Aeronaval order was also forthcoming as was the RN FAA. Then the divergence between Naval and Airforce designs would be more acceptable and affordable.

Thus P.1154 on the Breguet side would become an alternative to Dassault's F2 and F3 efforts of the time for the AdA and the naval version an alternative to the F8 Crusader.

 

[Archibald]

Very clever, I like it. Also France in 1965 lacked GB economic hardships (we have caught up with such misery since 1973, but that's another story).
Just thought about it, didn't BS.100 derived from Olympus ? Craaaap, anglo-french P.1154 would have Concorde DNA in its engine. How about that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Siddeley_BS.100

NATO-Anglo-French P.1154 not only screws the Mirage III-V and P.1127 (if it can be made to work) it also nips the Jaguar in the bud.

SNECMA would jump up and down in joy, at the prospect of placing an Olympus derivate into the military realm.

Next domino to fall: that TF30 licence was taken by SNECMA circa 1963 to power... the Mirage III-V. So both are now gone and buried (and good riddance !)

In a sense, BS.100 / Olympus has just taken the role of the TF306 in the Mirage F2 / F3 / G series. With such enormous power and a partially French engine, the F3 don't need to shrink into the Atar-F1, and a Mirage F3 with an Olympus 300 / 600 / BS.100 whatever will probably leave a Viggen or even a MiG-23 in the dust.
Considering the colossal potential it had for TSR.2 and Concorde (and Olympus Mk.610 was far from the end of the development road, cough, Concorde B) Dassault Mirages are assured not lacking thrust for quite a long time.

Drats, this TL has potential.

 

[Archibald]

Tentative TL

1956-58 Michel Wibault finds an atentive ear at Breguet, the perenial private company loser to Dassault in combat aircraft. Wibault also gets the British (Hawker) onboard. P.1127 is now a go, the Germans and Americans are coming fast, too.

1959 Breguet jumps into the Kestrel tri-partite team, along Germany, GB and America.

1961 And from there, into the P.1154, along with NATO, the RN, RAF - and a very intrigued French Navy's Aéronavale. Dassault still allowed to build the Balzac V demonstrator with its 9 engines - 8*RB-108s + 1*Orpheus. It will crash twice killing its pilots twice - Pinier in February 1964 and Neale 18 months later.

1962 SNECMA takes a BS.100 licence, which is quite fortunate as it derives from the Olympus 300... just like Concorde own engine. SNECMA ends split between Breguet-and-the-british versus Dassault. The III-V with nearly 10 engines looks like an idiot compared to both P.1127 and 1154, even more with the second having the core of a Concorde engine to lift it off the ground.

1963 The Breguet - tri-partite alliance screw Dassault away from NBRM-3 and P.1154 triumphes. III-V never build, no need for SNECMA to take a TF306E turbofan licence from Pratt.

1964 Dassault is out of VSTOL, and so is the Armée de l'Air. The Aéronavale is split between P.1154 (in place of Crusaders) and P.1127 (to replace the Etendard IV).

1965 Breguet and SNECMA, plus BS.100 Olympus DNA, carries the day. Despite many issues, P.1154 is now a go as an anglo-french multirole VSTOL type.
-Jaguar nevers happens, nor AFVG.
-TSR.2 still kicks the bucket as unaffordable
-Mirage IV*Spey is a no-go
-so F-111K it is for the RAF
- with Buccaneer S.2 as Plan B (the horror, the horror).

1966 Meanwhile Dassault is firing by all tubes to create the Mirage III successor. Being out of the VSTOL business, swept wing or VG wing STOL is the way to go - Mirage F & G series, with the massive power of an Olympus in the back to help (TF306E never happens, nor M45). Still the lure of the Phantom / F-111 / F-15 twin jet results in the AdA pursuing and wasting unaffordable Mirage G4 / G8 / ACF. Mirage 2000 / 4000 never happens, as the Mirage F3 already has screwed the F1 before - and is doing it again. Mirage F3 will build as much airframes as the Mirage III before it (exactly OTL 600*2000s + 700*F1s = 1300 Mirage III and counting).

1968 No AFVG means no UKVG and no MRCA and no Tornado, Germany is split between Buccaneer and F-111. So is the RAF.

1969 P.1154 gains from Concorde another gift: an analog FBW control system to make VSTOL a bit less dangerous. From there it finds its way into Dassault Mirage F3 (long before OTL Mirage 2000 's 1978, and some years earlier than... the F-16).

1970 Without the Jaguar massive financial burden the AdA is free to buy more Mirage F earlier, which is not a bad thing for the coming Deal of the Century - the one who gets Belgium on its side first, can split the Deal away from the other three.

 

[GTX]

 

[zen]

Let's take that further.

With Breguet onboard, France throws its chips in on what is now the Quintet evaluation of Kestrel. Several AdA and AN pilots get to fly a few extra Kestrels funded by France.

Plan A is NMBR.3
Plan B is P1127 Kestrel

Breguet formulate a backup plan should both P1127 and P1154 fail.
Scale up Taon around BS.58 (straight through Pegasus) or BS.100D (direct no vectoring nozzles). HSA are all aboard as this veers closer to P.1152 and P1142 studies. Plan C is Sirocco II?

If Plan A. P1154 goes ahead, SAAB would at least be interested in the BS.100 for System 37, while Swedish government might actually be asking if P1154 meets their needs and license it.
Germany might have to license this after the failure of it's own and German-Americam schemes.
Italy would also license following on from G91.

If Plan B, Kestrel goes ahead (no name change) and USMC probably get their aircraft earlier.....but would it still be McDD?
FAA would benefit if MN demand naval version and a shift to the later Sea Harrier and CVL starts earlier.

If failure, backup Sirocco II, with BS.58 solves MRI Strike, provides FAA and AN with alternative to Crusader or Phantom II and as a byproduct BS start rolling out the first civil high bypass turbofan.....and still looks attractive to power System 37.
Bristol-SNECMA tie up seems a winner.

It's only if Dassault finds a way (Llan D) that Breguet will fail. But as you say, that would be F or G series designs wrapped around Bristol-SNECMA engine.....and maybe scaled up Etendard....

All this being early 60’s, it could tip balance to Civil Lord of the Admiralty's suggestion for a 40,000ton adaptable CV.
MN could be interested.

 

[Archibald]

View attachment 678121

You know, I'm still wondering why it wasn't considered in 1988, during the quixotic atempt at buying 15 second-hand F-18A to replace the Crusaders.
SHAR even F/A-2 could NOT be a threat to Rafale. Even less than even second-hand Hornets. Plus Blue Vixen and AMRAAMs... ok, MICAs. Or just the FRS.1, second-hand, with the AIM-9L of Falklands fame replaced with Magic-2. Same missiles the Crusaders ended with, but much better launch platform even subsonic.
And unlike Hornets, it doesn't screws Foch and Clem old BS-5 catapults.

When did the SHAR production line shut down ?

 

[apparition13]

If Plan B, Kestrel goes ahead (no name change) and USMC probably get their aircraft earlier.....but would it still be McDD?

Wasn't Northrop the original U.S. partner for Kestrel? I though they had a deal that then expired or they withdrew from, which allowed MD to step in.

 

[zen]

View attachment 678121

You know, I'm still wondering why it wasn't considered in 1988, during the quixotic atempt at buying 15 second-hand F-18A to replace the Crusaders.
SHAR even F/A-2 could NOT be a threat to Rafale. Even less than even second-hand Hornets. Plus Blue Vixen and AMRAAMs... ok, MICAs. Or just the FRS.1, second-hand, with the AIM-9L of Falklands fame replaced with Magic-2. Same missiles the Crusaders ended with, but much better launch platform even subsonic.
And unlike Hornets, it doesn't screws Foch and Clem old BS-5 catapults.

When did the SHAR production line shut down ?

Reopened in fact to replace losses in the Falklands I think and add a few more if memory serves.
So early 80's potential to defer long-term decision by opting into SHar then.

Intriguingly this all exerts potentials on P.1216......
If French and British have a history together with Kestrel or Sea Harrier, then an alternative European Collaborative effort could resolve around such a system as P.1216.
SNECMA being already a partner on Pegasus........

 

[Hood]

I have always though the Br.1011 studies that looked a lot like P.1127 actually looked better - aesthetically at least.
Could well be a British engine using a French concept in a French airframe would be a fairer worksplit.
Breguet own their own probably can't bring much to P.1127 and they wouldn't have much to do given Hawker is doing the airframe legwork and Bristol Siddeley the engine legwork.

On this basis NBMR.3 in my mind is looking like a Br.121 with a BS.100. Which I think would beat the Mirage IIIV hands down.
Anyhow all is moot unless you can convince the AdA that VSTOL is actually worthwhile.

 

[uk 75]

It is interesting to note that only Germany and Italy liked the rough field light fighter ground attack plane (G91).
The AdA and RAF only flirted with VSTOl for the pre 1964 Flexible Response nuclear role. Mirage IIIV and P1154 replaced by Jags carrying AN52 and WE177.
P1127RAF survived because of usefulness to RAF stopping Russian hoards in N Germany.
France hard sell for land vstol as it has plenty of airfields and Force de Frappe discourages nuclear strikes on them.
Keep France in integrated NATO front line in Germany after 1966 and a French 1127AdA becomes a more useful asset.

 

[Archibald]

Working from the old Jean Cuny book "les avions Breguets" I have done a "patchwork" picture of the company few last fast jets projects. From Br.1000 Taon to Br.1260... Alphajet.
They were the 1000, 1010, 1070, 1120, 1200, 1210, 1220 and 1260. They encompass transonic fighters, VSTOL, bomber, VG types, a trainer and... Jaguar obviously.

 

[Archibald]

There it is... a tapestry of Breguets.
- 1000, 1002 and 1100 are transonic LWF
- 1010 and 1110 are a whole bunch of VSTOL including a French Harrier
- 1120 is the Sirocco ( = naval Mirage F1 clone, ten years before the F1).
- 1170 was very much a F6D Missileer (slow missile truck for fleet defense)
- 1180 was a "Super Mirage IV"
- 1200 DAFNE was essentially a French Spey Phantom for supersonic fleet defense, fixed wing.
- 1210 became ECAT, then Jaguar
- 1220 are Breguet VG types (Breguet MiG-23 and Mirage G and Tornado and F-111)
- 1260 became the Alpha Jet after Dassault took over in 1969 - last Breguet ever, still alive !

My favorite are the naval fighters: 1120, 1170, 1200, 1220.
They are, respectively: Breguet Super Tiger, Breguet F6D, Breguet Phantom and Breguet F-111B or F-14.

 

[Archibald]

Hey, look ! A French Harrier !

Breguet Br.1110A.

 

[Hood]

Yep that's the one I had in mind.

 

[Archibald]

I have no idea how it relates to P.1127 early studies, pre-1960. Just that Breguet 1100 series were 1957-58.

 

[uk 75]

This thread goes to the nub of the problem with VSTOL from P1154 to F35.
Most of the customers want a conventional take off and landing aircraft but the manufacturers have various VTOL designs which they want to sell. The British TV series the Planemakers even created its Scott Furlong Predator which had a P1127 engine config with a Mirage/Fairey Delta wing.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-plane-makers.8958/#post-332300

The only large customer with the requirement and financial clout to get such a beast was and is the US Marine Corps. They made the running on evolving the Harrier and insisting on a VSTOL variant of the F35. Their absence of interest in P1154 and Mirage IIIV doomed those projects though noone realised it.
That nifty Breguet design cries out to join the A4 Skyhawk in USMC service.

 

[zen]

So....numbers?
Assuming NMBR.3 for the moment. Thpugh potentially applicable to other outcomes.

RAF 200 (175 GRS and 25 T)
Additional numbers possibly for Fighter missions
RN 148 FRS

MN 42?
AdA? 450?

Germany?

Italy?

 

[Archibald]

Standard numbers for the Aeronavale
- 42 Crusaders
- 71 S.E
- 100 were planned
- as 100 Jaguar M were, before them
- 90 Etendard IV were ever build (not sure about the countless prototypes and variants).

So you can reasonably count a low hundred Harriers for the Aéronavale.