Could it be time for shields to return to the infantry?

[carvalho2008]

Looking at the scenario of the Ukrainian war, the old negative perception about the use of shields by infantry soldiers seems to need a reevaluation. Shield in today's modern trench warfare, would be highly interesting. Analyze the complementarity of doctrine that could be implemented in an entrenched soldier, he does not need to run, but rather move and protect himself from grenades, artillery shrapnel and trench invasions by enemy infantry... this seems to be the new reality there...

 

[carvalho2008]

Provocative theme

 

[carvalho2008]

what size and what design?

 

[Newtonk]

This is Sparta! Shields work in one direction at a time, are easily defeated, expensive, weight a lot when carried for any length of time, and only semi effective against projectiles of a small calibre. I don't see them coming to a war near you any time soon.

The Romans had shield use as an art form with large formations, but fighting evolved away from both shields and large numbers of troops working together.

 

[carvalho2008]

This is Sparta! Shields work in one direction at a time, are easily defeated, expensive, weight a lot when carried for any length of time, and only semi effective against projectiles of a small calibre. I don't see them coming to a war near you any time soon.

The Romans had shield use as an art form with large formations, but fighting evolved away from both shields and large numbers of troops working together.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo_jerXcqa4&rco=1

 

[1635yankee]

Just what infantry soldiers need: more stuff to carry.

 

[Justo Miranda]

What infantrymen need is to sit in an office while the robots do their work.

 

[carvalho2008]

Just what infantry soldiers need: more stuff to carry.

where did you see soldiers carrying backpacks in the trench?

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yEYu0zgNRsc

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[SK2]

Shields are sort of effective only when your threat is from one single direction, like dynamic entry for CQB, or trench war in your case. Otherwise it will be a burden.

 

[carvalho2008]

Shields are sort of effective only when your threat is from one single direction, like dynamic entry for CQB, or trench war in your case. Otherwise it will be a burden.

But this is the exact name of the topic.

With the advent of drones and massive artillery, we have the return of the trenches.

How can shields maximize combatant survival by updating the doctrines and models that should be used?

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IH8f26_GYuI

 

[carvalho2008]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wtfdTuHTwGY

 

[Byeman]

What infantrymen need is to sit in an office while the robots do their work.

nope, there will always be foot soldiers. Cheaper than robots

 

[Byeman]

How can shields minimize combatant survival by updating the doctrines and models that should be used?

they can't. What are you going to remove from a soldier's standard load out.

 

[Justo Miranda]

nope, there will always be foot soldiers. Cheaper than robots

No life is cheap, ask our children and grandchildren if they want to be heroes or type in front of a screen.

 

[Scott Kenny]

As general issue? NO.

Specifically for riot squad? yes. Except that riot squad is not a military role (outside the military police). It's a police role.

 

[carvalho2008]

they can't. What are you going to remove from a soldier's standard load out.

That's what I'm saying. Do you still assume they are carrying standard backpacks on a hike? Where? This does not exist in this type of Ukrainian combat. This ended there...you can barely walk 500 meters there...keep analyzing the videos and combat scenes. There is no march. The equipment is stored in shelters and positions in trenches, posts or cars...

 

[carvalho2008]

As general issue? NO.

Specifically for riot squad? yes. Except that riot squad is not a military role (outside the military police). It's a police role.

It's difficult to see images of soldiers carrying backpacks and all their equipment in the Ukrainian scenario. really rare. The entire fight turned into either a trench or taking houses or shelters from a defensive position. The gears are definitely eliminated there. No one walks more than 500 m or 1 km. All accessory material remains in the shelters and the soldier leaves with just his vests. Taking a position becomes exactly the same as a riot squad taking a house or point. Obviously this does not summarize 100% of all missions. but they have become the overwhelming majority and mode of operation and for this, some type of additional armor shield seems to be extremely necessary. Drones eliminated any possibility of marching in open fields....this type of locomotion was eliminated. Having something that can even help with what comes from above has also become important... it is a barrage of dispersive fragmentation from all sides and from above...

 

[carvalho2008]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRQwXpbBLxw

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[DWG]

Do ballistic shields have a role in trench warfare? Yes, we call them sandbags.

The pictures of shields you show are primarily used for SWAT breachers. One man exposing himself to a breaching point that they know will have fire coming at them from only the forward arc. (The pic with what appears to be a large LED array taped to the front is interesting - flash without the bang?) They weigh a lot, they are carried for no more than five minutes and they grossly restrict what the carrier can do.

The only pics actually in combat appear to be IDF using a small deployable ballistic shield, and in a location where they physically can't dig in. Four of them clustering behind it is really inviting someone to take a shot with a heavy weapon.

Some of the shields in your pics are so heavy they're cantilevered off a mounting on the soldier's back and over his shoulder. That's going to really cut down on mobility and agility.

Shields were abandoned historically for exactly the same reason - they cut down on agility and mobility. They evolved down to the fist-sized buckler and then fell out of use entirely.

Offensively these shields are useless, they just make you a slower target.

Defensively they're just as useless, they mark your position for the enemy and they're a hindrance if you need to do something that needs both hands - reload, grab a grenade, drop everything and relocate back to the next line of defence.

 

[carvalho2008]

Do ballistic shields have a role in trench warfare? Yes, we call them sandbags.

The pictures of shields you show are primarily used for SWAT breachers. One man exposing himself to a breaching point that they know will have fire coming at them from only the forward arc. (The pic with what appears to be a large LED array taped to the front is interesting - flash without the bang?) They weigh a lot, they are carried for no more than five minutes and they grossly restrict what the carrier can do.

The only pics actually in combat appear to be IDF using a small deployable ballistic shield, and in a location where they physically can't dig in. Four of them clustering behind it is really inviting someone to take a shot with a heavy weapon.

Some of the shields in your pics are so heavy they're cantilevered off a mounting on the soldier's back and over his shoulder. That's going to really cut down on mobility and agility.

Shields were abandoned historically for exactly the same reason - they cut down on agility and mobility. They evolved down to the fist-sized buckler and then fell out of use entirely.

Offensively these shields are useless, they just make you a slower target.

Defensively they're just as useless, they mark your position for the enemy and they're a hindrance if you need to do something that needs both hands - reload, grab a grenade, drop everything and relocate back to the next line of defence.

 

[carvalho2008]

Even a small plate seems to cover a reasonable angle of protection. especially when we tend to turn and look in the direction of the threat

 

[DWG]

Even a small plate seems to cover a reasonable angle of protection. especially when we tend to turn and look in the direction of the threat

Assuming that weighs the same as a normal ballistic insert plate, you just doubled the weight of the rifle and moved its balance point to the worst possible position wrt fatigue.

 

[southwestforests]

How can shields minimize combatant survival by updating the doctrines and models that should be used?

Typo to fix?
Minimize - maximize?

 

[carvalho2008]

Assuming that weighs the same as a normal ballistic insert plate, you just doubled the weight of the rifle and moved its balance point to the worst possible position wrt fatigue.

Well, I have no doubt that the subject is controversial, especially when ideas cannot be refuted without argument.

Firstly we have to resolve the issue:

- Is the type of Ukrainian combat true or false in which the backpacks and equipment there are not carried by soldiers the overwhelming majority of the time? With advances in the field of less than 1 km at best or even just a few hundred meters in cities? Backpacks are in vehicles and trenches in the overwhelming majority of missions, right? They only walk with protective vests and ammunition, right? or not? Is it right to bring the image that the soldiers are walking with 40 kg of kit in that scenario? no, they don't load...we are not seeing this...

On a second point, it is not yet the time to discuss the size of the shield and obviously the impact of the weight it will bring. The images are posted precisely to clarify what exists in large, medium or small volume and weight. The truth is that no one, absolutely no one, imagined the return of WWI trench warfare mixed with drones and real-time imaging. A large, medium or small shield? Engagement occurs between 5 m to 25 m. Totally outside the normal standards of the last 40 years...

Among the examples there is one of the plate applied as a frontal protector of the rifle... without a doubt it increases the imbalance in the weapon's weight, but we cannot fail to make two connections:

1) The feasibility of supporting the rod mounted on the coast, similar to that used for mobility with a heavy machine gun, has already been demonstrated (I don't think it might be necessary, but there is a hypothetical solution)

2) Sandbag there, does not allow the soldier to travel to the firing points in the trench, it is absurdly common there for the soldier to raise the rifle and fire in bursts without sights, precisely because of this lack of protection

 

[Foo Fighter]

Well, I have no doubt that the subject is controversial, especially when ideas cannot be refuted without argument.

Firstly we have to resolve the issue:

- Is the type of Ukrainian combat true or false in which the backpacks and equipment there are not carried by soldiers the overwhelming majority of the time? With advances in the field of less than 1 km at best or even just a few hundred meters in cities? Backpacks are in vehicles and trenches in the overwhelming majority of missions, right? They only walk with protective vests and ammunition, right? or not? Is it right to bring the image that the soldiers are walking with 40 kg of kit in that scenario? no, they don't load...we are not seeing this...

Can I just ask if you have been IN the PBI?

If not (Which is as I suspect), why not ask if you can accompany the nearest local unit, regular of reserve, on a six week exercise and see how that works out for you.

Walk a mile in someone's boots before you suggest how they do the bloody job, thank you.

 

[carvalho2008]

Can I just ask if you have been IN the PBI?

If not (Which is as I suspect), why not ask if you can accompany the nearest local unit, regular of reserve, on a six week exercise and see how that works out for you.

Walk a mile in someone's boots before you suggest how they do the bloody job, thank you.

this was a great argument for a discussion forum

 

[Byeman]

No life is cheap, ask our children and grandchildren if they want to be heroes or type in front of a screen.

still not going to change things. There always will be human infantry.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Well, I have no doubt that the subject is controversial, especially when ideas cannot be refuted without argument.

Firstly we have to resolve the issue:

- Is the type of Ukrainian combat true or false in which the backpacks and equipment there are not carried by soldiers the overwhelming majority of the time? With advances in the field of less than 1 km at best or even just a few hundred meters in cities? Backpacks are in vehicles and trenches in the overwhelming majority of missions, right? They only walk with protective vests and ammunition, right? or not? Is it right to bring the image that the soldiers are walking with 40 kg of kit in that scenario? no, they don't load...we are not seeing this...

Given the relative lack of competence shown on both sides, I'd argue that this is one of the most abnormal fights we will ever see.

Had the Russian Airborne been halfway competent, Ukraine would be a province of Russia less than 12 hours after operation start.

On a second point, it is not yet the time to discuss the size of the shield and obviously the impact of the weight it will bring. The images are posted precisely to clarify what exists in large, medium or small volume and weight. The truth is that no one, absolutely no one, imagined the return of WWI trench warfare mixed with drones and real-time imaging. A large, medium or small shield? Engagement occurs between 5 m to 25 m. Totally outside the normal standards of the last 40 years...

Exactly, this is highly atypical combat happening right now. Just like how Afghanistan was highly atypical (due to engagement ranges).

DO NOT make equipment decisions based on atypical scenarios!

Among the examples there is one of the plate applied as a frontal protector of the rifle... without a doubt it increases the imbalance in the weapon's weight,

It also GREATLY shifts point of impact when you hand a 10+lb weight off the barrel. Crud, POI shifts a good 6" or more just from hanging a bayonet on the front...

 

[carvalho2008]

 

[carvalho2008]

Cabinet of Curiosities - German Trench Shield - Museum of Angra do Heroismo

The first snipers appeared amidst the trench warfare of the Great War (1914-1918). The German army adopted these individual shields, which were placed on the trenches’ edge to protect them while they were taking long-distance precision shots. This shield is part of the Museum of Angra do...

museu-angra.cultura.azores.gov.pt

 

[carvalho2008]

WW1 Era German Trench Shield

Here is a WW1 era German Trench Shield, it seems these shields which were utilized by all sides (in various styles) and came into play around 1915. These shields were portable, weighing at least 20 to 30 pounds and had a closeable loophole for firing. This German version weighed 30 pounds and mea...

www.treasurebunker.com

 

[Byeman]

WW1 Era German Trench Shield

Here is a WW1 era German Trench Shield, it seems these shields which were utilized by all sides (in various styles) and came into play around 1915. These shields were portable, weighing at least 20 to 30 pounds and had a closeable loophole for firing. This German version weighed 30 pounds and mea...

www.treasurebunker.com

Doesn't support your point. Those are "part' of the trench and not the individual soldiers equipment. Too heavy to be carried.

 

[carvalho2008]