Cost of light fleet carriers?

Lascaris

Lascaris

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Trying to figure out which countries could actually handle the cost of light fleet carriers in 1946-60, so do we have any actual data at what prices the Colossus and Majestic class ships were sold by Britain in 1946-60? And for that matter how much their modernization with angled fight decks and steam catapults cost?
 
According to Jane's 1960-61 . . .
  • Melbourne (ex-Majestic) cost £A8,309,000 when completed in 1955. It doesn't say how much the Australian Taxpayer paid for Sydney (ex-Terrible) which was completed in 1949.
    • The price for Melbourne is in Australian Pounds and the exchange rate in the 1950s was £1 Sterling = £1.25 Australian.
    • So does that mean £A8,309,000 x 1.25 = £10,386,250 Sterling?
  • The purchase cost of Minas Gerais (ex-Vengeance) was $16,000,000 and her reconstruction was to cost $15,000,000.
    • In this case $ = Brazilian Reals.
    • I don't know the exchange rate for the Pound Sterling to the Brazilian Real in the 1950s.
  • The cost of reconstructing Karel Doorman (ex-Venerable) 1955-58 was 25 million Guilders instead of the 11 million Guilders originally appropriated. It doesn't say how much the Dutch Government paid when it purchased the ship from the UK.
    • Vengeance and Venerable were the most extensively rebuilt of the Colossus & Majestic classes.
    • I don't know the exchange rate for the Pound Sterling to the Dutch Guilder in the 1950s.
  • It doesn't say how much Argentina paid for Independencia (ex-Warrior) of how much the British Taxpayer paid for her 1952-53 and 1955-56 refits.
  • It doesn't say how much Canada paid for Bonaventure (ex-Powerful) in 1952 and it doesn't say how much it cost to complete her between 1952 and 1957.
  • It doesn't say how much France paid for Arromanches (ex-Colossus) and it doesn't say how much her 1950-51 and 1957-58 refits cost.
  • It doesn't say how much India paid for Vikrant (ex-Hercules) or how much it was costing to complete her.
 
I seem to remember Brazil paid for a lot of its arms purchases with Sterling reserves that it had built.
That was always the problem with Latin American sales, they paid in Sterling but the Treasury wanted sweet, sweet American Dollars.
 
Hood said:
I seem to remember Brazil paid for a lot of its arms purchases with Sterling reserves that it had built.
That was always the problem with Latin American sales, they paid in Sterling but the Treasury wanted sweet, sweet American Dollars.
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And to make matters worse Jane's 1961-62 has different figures. It says that the purchase cost of Minas Gerais was $9,000,000 and that the cost of reconstruction was $27,000,000 for a total of $36,000,000 when the total in Jane's 1960-61 was $16,000,000 plus $15,000,000 equals $31,000,000.
 
A few things to add in here. Some of these light fleet carriers were picked up used, this is the case for both of Argentina's ships and Brazil's as well. This will affect the acquisition price, although the cost of major upgrades is still very hefty.

Another major cost will be the air wing, these light fleet carriers can only operate a handful of types: Sea Hawk, Sea Venom, Banshee, A4 Skyhawk and Harrier. Replacing these air wings puts a major cost and therefore decision point in front of the Governments involved. Such decisions points aren't just about cost, but also force structure and defence policy in general.

Manning can be difficult for these medium navies. even if they have the cash. The RAN rejected the offer of the Hermes in 1968 because the RAN wouldn't have been able to man it (or at least not easily).

Finally there's a big difference between what a government 'can' afford and what it 'wants to' afford. Below is a chart from UK Public spending. It shows that while defence spending doubled (1.8b-3.5b) between 1956 and 1972, the years Britain couldn't afford all sorts of important strategic capabilities, it also shows that public spending on the rest of government quadrupled (5.6b - 22.9b). To break this down further, new acquisition is between 25-40% of the force's budget, more for the Navy and Air Forces and less for the Army. It's hard to believe that when a few extra tens of millions would have seen the CVA01 enter service that the government couldn't have found it in the 30b they spent elsewhere in 1967 and 1968.

ukgs_line.php
 
Dilandu said:
Hm. If I recall correctly, Hermes operated Sea Vixens?
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The OP was talking about Colossus and Majestic classes, not the 50% larger Centaur class.

Of course the Centaur class does expand the types of aircraft available, however not so much that it can operate F4s, F8s or F/A18s.
 
Rule of cool said:
Finally there's a big difference between what a government 'can' afford and what it 'wants to' afford.
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As aptly demonstrated by the GFC, COVID pandemic and the West's spending on the Russian-Ukraine Conflict......

Regards
Pioneer
 
Lascaris said:
Trying to figure out which countries could actually handle the cost of light fleet carriers in 1946-60, so do we have any actual data at what prices the Colossus and Majestic class ships were sold by Britain in 1946-60? And for that matter how much their modernization with angled fight decks and steam catapults cost?
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Interesting Lascaris

Naturally hindsight is a wonderful thing and I very much appreciate that the Post-WWII proliferation of purchasing small/light aircraft carriers was spurred by their availability - both completed and semi-completed hulls. But I can't help but wonder if the demonstrated expertise of the Royal Navy operating aircraft carriers during the war couldn't have used this firsthand knowledge and expertise to openly promote that such small/light carriers were limited in their true operational/ practical scope.....hence, using, promoting the building of slightly larger, more practice design of light carrier, rather than the limited 'makeshift' Colossus and Majestic-class which would more easily allow for the incorporation of the inevitable larger and heavier carrier-based aircraft. For as clearly seen, almost all these fledgling navies that inspired to join the carrier club purchased their carriers at a good initial price, then had to find additional money in almost immediately needing to modify them, in a sense negating the bargain aspect of the initial purchase....

Sorry, I'm just thinking out aloud....

Regards
Pioneer
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
It doesn't say how much France paid for Arromanches (ex-Colossus) and it doesn't say how much her 1950-51 and 1957-58 refits cost
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The French bought Arromanches in March 1951 for £1.5 million… about £40 million in 2024 pounds. Sounds like a steal.

Note that the USN Independence class CVLs were an even better deal - La Fayette (ex-Langley) was transferred in 1951 for free under the US MDAP program.
 
I think that these light fleet carriers weren't designed to have 20+ year peacetime service lives. Not could they anticipate the introduction of jet aircraft with much higher take-off and landing speeds that, even more than higher weights, necessitated the adoption of the angled deck and steam catapult. Given these design constraints having these ships last into the 60s and some even well beyond is quite a success story.
 
FWIW, Canada paid the UK $21 million for the incomplete HMS Powerful. Another $10M CAD was required for modifications and completion as HMCS Bonaventure. Those figures, of course, are in 1952 CAD.

The 1952 exchange rate was 1 x CAD = 0.36480 GBP, so ...

- $ 21 M CAD (1952) = £ 7.66 M GBP (1952) +
- $ 10 M CAD (1952) = £ 3.65 M GBP (1952); for
___________________________________

- $31M CAD (1952) = £11.31M GBP (1952) Total
________________________________________________

Conversion to Current CAD

- $ 21M CAD (1952) = $ 241.00 M CAD (2024)
- $ 10M CAD (1952) = $ 114.75 M CAD (2024); for
___________________________________

- $ 31M CAD (1952) = $ 355.73 M CAD (2024) Total
________________________________________________

Conversion to Current GBP

£ 7.66 M GBP (1952) = £186.51 M GBP (2024)
£ 3.65 M GBP (1952) = £ 88.87 M GBP (2024); for
___________________________________

£11.31 M GBP (1952) = £275.38 M GBP (2024) Total
________________________________________________
 
H_K said:
The French bought Arromanches in March 1951 for £1.5 million… about £40 million in 2024 pounds. Sounds like a steal.

Note that the USN Independence class CVLs were an even better deal - La Fayette (ex-Langley) was transferred in 1951 for free under the US MDAP program.
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The 3 Independence-class CVLs (1 for Spain, remember?) were loans, not purchases/gifts. When their intended use as declared at the time of the loan was finished they were required to be returned to the US - and they were.

The transfers of the Colossus/Majestic carriers (except for the loans of Vengeance to Australia 1952-55, Warrior to Canada 1946-48, and Magnificent to Canada 1948-57 and of Colossus to France in August 1946, then purchased in 1951 - thanks EwenS) were actual sales.
 
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As H_K only mentioned La Fayette, I'll fill out the data.

La Fayette (ex-Langley) was loaned to France January 1951, returned to the USN in March 1963, and scrapped a year later.
Bois Belleau (ex-Belleau Wood) was loaned to France September 1953, returned to the USN in September 1960, and immediately sold for scrap.

Dedalo (ex-Cabot) was loaned to Spain August 1967, the loan was converted to a sale in July 1972, and she was finally decommissioned in August 1989 and given to a US-based Foundation for conversion to museum ship - this effort failed and she was sold for scrap.
 
The DNC Department was responsible for designing most of the refit upgrades to Australia and Canada, so presumably that must have been costed as part of those sales (Canada opted to buy a 'new build' Majestic hull rather than a used Colossus, presumably to save on the reconstruction costs).
 
From Moore "Building for Victory" the figures for the ships proposed for cancellation in 1945 included the following:-
Leviathan - Spent £1.9m saved £830k - so total expected cost would have been £2.73m (70% complete)
Majestic - Spent £1.76m saved £730k - so total expected cost £2.49m (71% complete)
Powerful - Spent £1.75m saved £1.1m - so total expected cost £2.85m (61% complete)
Terrible - Spent £.1.92m saved £520k - so total expected cost £2.44m (79% complete)

In the late wartime plans Canada was intended to man the Warrior & Magnificent. Expected completion dates in March 1945 were expected to be Aug & Dec 1945 respectively. With the end of WW2 Canada decided to take only Warrior which completed in March 1946. Then in 1948 they returned Warrior and took Magnificent, which had lain at Belfast close to completion since 1945.

There were differences between the Colossus & Majestic classes.:-
Flight deck strengthened to take 20,000lb aircraft v 15,000lb in Colossus (still short of the next generation planned at 30,000lb)
Larger lifts 54x34ft v 45x34ft
Modified internal sub-division to improve survivability
Improved standard of habitability incl partial air conditioning, cafeteria style messing.

The effect was to increase their displacement by 550 tons.

A Dec 1945 plan noted in Friedman was for 3 of the above 4 noted above to have work carried on at a slow pace while trying to sell 2 or preferably 3 Colossus class to foreign Govts, with cancellation if the sales fell through. Work continued on Leviathan & Powerful until May 1946 according to Hobbs.

According to Friedman, Canada suggested in 1950 that the Magnificent be modernised starting in 1952, while a modernised Majestic could be lent in the interim. But no steam catapult would be available until April 1954 and would take 6 months to install. So in Nov 1950 the Admiralty proposed postponing Magnificent's refit until then.

Then in April 1952 the Canadians decided to fund the acquisition and modernisation of a carrier to replace Magnificent. The deal for Powerful was concluded on 29 Nov 1952 and backdated to 12 July. A contract was immediately signed by the Admiralty with Harland & Wolff for her modernisation and work started within a fortnight, her new name, Bonaventure, being announced before Christmas 1952. Electrical & electronic equipment valued at Cdn $3m was sourced from Canadian companies. She was completed in Jan 1957.

See "A History of Canadian Naval Aviation 1918-1962"
Friedman "British Carrier Aviation"
Hobbs "British Aircraft Carriers"
Moore "Building for Victory"
 
Pioneer said:
But I can't help but wonder if the demonstrated expertise of the Royal Navy operating aircraft carriers during the war couldn't have used this firsthand knowledge and expertise to openly promote that such small/light carriers were limited in their true operational/ practical scope.....hence, using, promoting the building of slightly larger, more practice design of light carrier, rather than the limited 'makeshift' Colossus and Majestic-class which would more easily allow for the incorporation of the inevitable larger and heavier carrier-based aircraft.
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So my understanding is that the Colossus/Majestic hull is the size it is to fit the largest possible number of drydocks in the UK. Particularly Length, which is a pretty crucial constraint.

It's not that there isn't longer and larger drydocks but the options narrow down quite rapidly as one Lengthens the hull and for the RN those military drydocks be needed for the limited number of larger carriers.
 
Pioneer said:
But I can't help but wonder if the demonstrated expertise of the Royal Navy operating aircraft carriers during the war couldn't have used this firsthand knowledge and expertise to openly promote that such small/light carriers were limited in their true operational/ practical scope
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When you consider that all the British and Australia carrier deployments during the Korean War were all Colossus class ships, they seem to have performed well and that kind of active operational exposure probably convinced the would be buyers.

The Majestics were not bad buys, given that the four cancelled Centaurs were never laid down, there were no other options, unless a nation wanted to stump up the costs of a full new-build.
 
zen said:
So my understanding is that the Colossus/Majestic hull is the size it is to fit the largest possible number of drydocks in the UK. Particularly Length, which is a pretty crucial constraint.

It's not that there isn't longer and larger drydocks but the options narrow down quite rapidly as one Lengthens the hull and for the RN those military drydocks be needed for the limited number of larger carriers.
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Hull size didn't come into the outline design requirements for the Colossus class set out by the DNC in Dec 1941. The requirements were based around:-

1. Unprotected carrier
2. Speed 25 knots
3. To carry at least 15 aircraft (including the fixed wing Typhoon then under consideration for naval use)
4. For quick construction (hence hull built to merchant ship standards using a half set of Fiji cruiser machinery)

Initial design was delegated to Vickers and the ship grew in size, both dimensionally and in displacement, from their initial Jan 1942 proposal. One reason for the length increase was to accomodate a free take off for the Typhoon.

Size wise the ship that emerged could be built on slipways previously used to build cruisers. So the 1942 Programme saw 5 Fiji class cruisers due to be built at Stephens, Fairfield, Hawthorn Leslie, Vickers Barrow & Cammell Laird cancelled in Aug 1942 with their places being taken by orders for Colossus / Majestic class carriers. 3 had already been ordered in March 1942. In total 10 were ordered in Aug 1942 to be followed by a further 3 by the end of the year.

Problems with the physical size of ships in the shipyards began to emerge in 1942, but it was the beam not the length that created the problem. As a result the original Eagle had to be transferred from Swan Hunter to VA (Tyne) as when the beam was widened to 112ft she wound not fit between the cranes at SW.

The real problems with dry docking facilities came with the design of the Malta class (initially planned at 950ft oa with a 114-122ft beam). In 1943 there were only 3 docks in the UK capable of accomodating these ships. But these were substantially larger than the Colossus class.
 
NOMISYRRUC said:
According to Jane's 1960-61 . . .
  • Melbourne (ex-Majestic) cost £A8,309,000 when completed in 1955. It doesn't say how much the Australian Taxpayer paid for Sydney (ex-Terrible) which was completed in 1949.
    • The price for Melbourne is in Australian Pounds and the exchange rate in the 1950s was £1 Sterling = £1.25 Australian.
    • So does that mean £A8,309,000 x 1.25 = £10,386,250 Sterling?
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£A8,309,000/1.25, not x1.25, surely, so £6,647,200 Sterling
 
uk 75 said:
The helicopter extends the usefulness of light fleet carriers as ASW ships and as amphibious warfare vessels.
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Not really. To operate in those roles they required a lot of money spent on them to modernise their electronics and command and control facilities from their 1945 standard.

While people like to point to the use of Ocean & Theseus at Suez in the amphibious role, it should be remembered that that was a temporary expedient in a time of crisis. Both ships had been refitted and joined the Home Fleet Training Squadron in 1954 as replacements for the Indefatigable & Implacable that were much more costly to run. Much of their hangar space was taken up with classrooms.

The first really useful helicopter was the Sikorsky S-55 with 10 HAR Mk.21 sent to Malaya in Jan 1953 followed by ASW trials with some of the other 15 delivered under MDAP as HAS Mk.22 starting in March 1954 with 845 squadron in the ASW role. It was two flights of 4 that embarked on Ocean & Theseus in April 1956 for more trials both in the ASW & Commando roles in various exercises. For Suez 845 embarked on Theseus while the RAF Joint Experimental Helicopter Unit (IIRC the "Experimental" was dropped for the duration of the Suez operation) took its Bristol Sycamore helicopters onto Ocean. They were little more than a platform from which to fly. Immediately after this Theseus was decommissioned in Jan 1957 to be followed by Ocean in Jan 1958. Both very quickly ended up on the disposal list.

The first successful Westland Whirlwind ASW version was the HAS.7 which first flew in Oct 1956 and entered service in 1957. And they could carry either a dipping sonar or a single homing torpedo so had to work in hunter killer pairs, while relatively close to their parent carrier. It was the mid-1960 before autonomous helicopter operations became a reality with Wessex HAS.3 and Sea King arriving on the scene.

By 1960 all the Colossus / Majestic ships remaining in the RN were laid up awaiting disposal.

Bulwark was converted into a Commando Carrier 1958-60 followed by Albion in 1961-62. These were much more extensive conversions that the platforms provided by Ocean & Theseus at Suez.
 
EwenS said:
There were differences between the Colossus & Majestic classes.:-
Flight deck strengthened to take 20,000lb aircraft v 15,000lb in Colossus (still short of the next generation planned at 30,000lb)
Larger lifts 54x34ft v 45x34ft
Modified internal sub-division to improve survivability
Improved standard of habitability incl partial air conditioning, cafeteria style messing.

The effect was to increase their displacement by 550 tons.
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Whilst I am aware of the strengthened flight deck of the original Majestics over the original Colossus, Colossus vessels must surely have been put through deck restrengthening/rebuilds to enable them to operate heavier or larger aircraft?

The reason I ask is because 2 of the 4 longest operational carriers were Colossus class vessels..the Veinticinco de Mayo and Minas Gerais.
These operated the same types of aircraft as the Majestic class Melbourne....Trackers and Skyhawks with max weights between 24 and 25 000lbs.
Whilst I am aware these are max weights, even the Indepencia (deck strengthened during 1955 refit) operated Trackers, which even in early variants had an empty weight of approx 18 000lbs and an operational weight of over 22 000lbs.
The Bonaventure, another Majestic vessel operated the Banshee, which weighed in at 26 0000 lbs max, like the Super Etendard.

Were those Colussus class operating the heavier aircraft rebuilt with a strengthened deck to match the Majestics?

It would be interesting to find out which Vessels were strengthened, what that entailed, and what that rating was.
 
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I haven't read of the decks being strengthened - but the aircraft lifts and arresting gear certainly were.

Arresting gear of Colossus class: 10 wires @ 15,000lb per. both lifts with a 15,000lb capacity

Arresting gear of Majestic class: 8 wires @ 20,000lb per (63kt). both lifts with a 15,000lb capacity
(Independencia certainly got 5 of these wires & lifts [if not stronger ones] to operate Trackers)

Arresting gear of Mod Majestic class: 5 wires @ 30,000lb per. both lifts with a 24,000lb capacity

Arresting gear of Minas Gerais & 25 de Mayo: 6 wires @ 30,000lb (@ 60 kt) per. both lifts with a ?lb capacity

Arresting gear of Centaur class: 5 wires @ 30,000lb per. both lifts with a 35,000lb capacity

Centaur only 6 wires @ 35,000lb 1960>. [fwd lift 37,000lb capacity] [aft lift 40,000lb capacity

Arresting gear of Hermes: 5 wires @ 35,000lb (45,000 1966>). both lifts with a 40,000lb capacity
 
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Yes, one titbit is that HMCS Magnificent at the time of her loan to Canada actually had better-rated arrester gear than any of the fleet and light fleet carriers then in RN active use (which was a bit embarrassing when the RN started doing jet landing trials).
 
If I remember correctly from Freidman the RN had some of their Colossus class modified to operate 20,000lb aircraft in the late 1940s. I don't remember what the modifications were and I don't have time to check. However, these weren't the same as the modifications that Warrior had in her 1950s refits, which were more extensive.
 
Although the RN only used Ocean and Theseus briefly, Arromanches had a useful training/wartime ASW role in France and Minas G ended her days with the Brazilian Navy carrying Seakings. RAN had Seakings on Melbourne.
Comsideration was given to completing Leviathan as a helo carrier but she was in poor shape.
 
Lascaris said:
Trying to figure out which countries could actually handle the cost of light fleet carriers in 1946-60, so do we have any actual data at what prices the Colossus and Majestic class ships were sold by Britain in 1946-60? And for that matter how much their modernization with angled fight decks and steam catapults cost?
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The cost of a carrier is irrelevant without including the cost of the strike group to protect the big sitting duck
 
Swan said:
The cost of a carrier is irrelevant without including the cost of the strike group to protect the big sitting duck
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And over the course of a carrier's life, that air group will change many times over
 
Just a sideways thought, and it may be the late hour causing this sidetrack.

What IF, Leviathan had hung around long enough to be a test bed for the use of gas turbines?

Possibly in synch with diesel units.

Is it possible?
 
Foo Fighter said:
Just a sideways thought, and it may be the late hour causing this sidetrack.

What IF, Leviathan had hung around long enough to be a test bed for the use of gas turbines?

Possibly in synch with diesel units.

Is it possible?
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Turbines on a carrier though possible are highly problematic because the fuel tanks for the ship and aircraft are enormous limiting the ability of the ship and aircraft both
 
Malaysia maby, I'm not sure how useful a light carrier with a-4 would be against a comunist indonesia.
 
BlackBat242 said:
As H_K only mentioned La Fayette, I'll fill out the data.

La Fayette (ex-Langley) was loaned to France January 1951, returned to the USN in March 1963, and scrapped a year later.
Bois Belleau (ex-Belleau Wood) was loaned to France September 1953, returned to the USN in September 1960, and immediately sold for scrap.

Dedalo (ex-Cabot) was loaned to Spain August 1967, the loan was converted to a sale in July 1972, and she was finally decommissioned in August 1989 and given to a US-based Foundation for conversion to museum ship - this effort failed and she was sold for scrap.
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I'm oddly amused that the French didn't even rename Belleau Wood, just translated the name... But then again, it was named for a WW1 battle in France, so...
 
Foo Fighter said:
Just a sideways thought, and it may be the late hour causing this sidetrack.

What IF, Leviathan had hung around long enough to be a test bed for the use of gas turbines?

Possibly in synch with diesel units.

Is it possible?
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With the right GT I'd say yes.
 

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