Commercial (or Semi Commercial) Cargo Submarines

[RyanC]

Yes I know once again from NHHC Photo

 

[lastdingo]

There were actually cargo subs in WWI ... German, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_Deutschland

 

[Avimimus]

And Japanese in WWII (not to mention Russian use of converted subs in the Crimea - which was a concept further developed in the postwar years with dedicated designs).

Is there any conceivable requirement for commercial submarines (other than moving under pack ice)?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Is there any conceivable requirement for commercial submarines

Yes. Take one and dress up the deck to look like a conventional surface ship, then sail around near Somalia. Wait for pirates to board, then submerge.

 

[mz]

And Russian subs in the arctic to go under the ice in the winter...

 

[ouroboros]

The arguments I've seen are the following;

1. Arctic Oil Tanker - The intention being to move oil under the arctic ice cap to the US eastern seaboard. Unfortunately, the gradual opening of the Northwest Passage due to the northern ice melting reduces the economic incentives.

2. Cargo safety - Traveling underwater is a comparatively steady state operation, with little to no impact from surface storms. If a cargo route goes through areas with significant storms, and there is sufficient depth to escape surface wave effects, this may be viable since the ship travel times would vary very little. The drawbacks being cargo load/unload time, and reduced speed/higher cost when compared to a conventional ship when there are no significant storms. There is a secondary cargo security issue at play as well.

3. Blockade evasion - The WWII german cargo submarines are an example of this. Unfortunately, this really only applies to very high value cargo due to easy detectability of large submarines carrying bulk cargo. The modern equivalent are the current cocaine semisubmersibles (which will probably move to concrete submarine construction at some point in the future, if not conventional steel submarines such as those that have already been discovered)

 

[airman]

just found :
http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/russian-cargo-submarine-bizarre-maritime-technology/

 

[Jemiba]

... Wait for pirates to board, then submerge.

Good idea ! This way even the old Type 206 subs, now to be decommissioned, could still serve
in role proposed by our former Federal President: To secure our trade, mimicking, say a sailing
yacht. ;D
But another good task could be, to load crude oil direct at the bore, making oil rigs and long
tubing redundant. Large pollutions had to be achieved another way then !

 

[skyrider]

How much they are going to charge for insurance for commercial cargo submarine? It will never work.

 

[Jemiba]

Let

How much they are going to charge for insurance for commercial cargo submarine? It will never work.

Let's see ! Would be a lot more difficult for Somali pirates to board such a ship ! ;D
And those guys can increase charges for insurance, too. Maybe shipyards, which are
able to produce such ships, should invest in small speedboats, Kalashnikovs and RPG-7s
in the meantime ? B)

 

[Grey Havoc]

Via Shipbucket, the 'Submarine Train'.

 

[Grey Havoc]

You could also say that this topic is related: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10902.0.html

 

[Nik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_the_Sea
aka 'Under Pressure', Author Frank Herbert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracone_Barge
By curious coincidence, development of Dracone flexible 'barges' began shortly after the book's publication...

 

[Grey Havoc]

I wouldn't say that this is any great surprise; Via our rivials at Militaryphotos.net:

The old Soviet Union may have been just as familiar with Canada's Arctic waters as Canadians.

Sections of Cold-War-era nautical charts obtained by The Canadian Press suggest that Russian mariners have for decades possessed detailed and accurate knowledge of crucial internal waterways such as the Northwest Passage.

Those charts, which may offer the first documentary proof of the widely held belief that Soviet nuclear submarines routinely patrolled the Canadian Arctic during the Cold War, are still in use by Russian vessels. In some places, they are preferred to current Canadian charts.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/red-october-real-maps-suggest-soviet-subs-cruised-093009696.html

 

[madmike]

from 'Storia Militare', an italian historical magazine, the project of a pre-WWII submarine oil tanker, with carachteristics.






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Uploaded with ImageShack.us


and, from the same source, drawings and characteristics of the transport submarines R class, of WWII, of the Italian Navy






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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.institutenorth.org/assets/images/uploads/files/Power.pdf

 

[Grey Havoc]

Some interesting material on Axis submarine blockade runners on pages 175-177 (pdf pages 200-202) of this old 1953 USN study: SPECIAL REPORT ON OPERATIONS AND ORGANIZATION OF THE GERMAN NAVAL SUPPLY SYSTEM DURING WORLD WAR II

 

[Boxman]

While Searching For Something Else (WSFSE?), I came across this 1981 General Dynamics proposal for submersible LNG tankers:

http://www.navalprofessional.com/vessels/submarine-carrier-proposed-dynamics-4482

The boats were intended to be 1470 ft long and could have nuclear or non-nuclear propulsion. The conops was to ship LNG from Alaskan waters to consumers in Europe and Japan.

Although the sail on the boat in the photo is toward the bow rather than the stern (as for the artist rendering of the GD LNG carrier in the item at Naval Professional), this appears to be related.


Posted at the San Diego Air & Space Museum (SDASM) Flickr photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/8126225660/in/photostream

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4417

These post-war designs may be related in some way: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1857.0.html

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Saunders-Roe/SARO P.212 commercial nuclear sub.


source: From River To Sea: The Marine Legacy of Sam Saunders

 

[Yellow Palace]

Very interesting - whilst obviously intended for dry bulk cargoes, it would be fairly straightforward to produce a similar design for bulk oil. I'd be surprised if Saunders-Roe hadn't drawn one up, actually.

 

[Grey Havoc]

(h/t pavel)

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Largest Submarine In The World Could Get Eclipsed

Russian engineers have proposed a massive submarine tanker capable of carrying 170,000-180,000 tons at a time. This would dwarf the mighty Typhoon Class ballistic missile sub, which is the largest submarine ever built.

www.forbes.com

 

[uk 75]

Grey Havoc Love those Russians Wiki has some info on a suggested Typhoon conversion

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

¿Is valid these kind of submarines? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine
https://funnyjunk.com/Evolution+of+nacro+subs/lnmeMya/

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I found this image in this old kid book from 1969: https://www.iberlibro.com/SUBMARINOS-sd-Novaro-Mexico/5206418080/bd
Is the only image about submarines from the future. Text is almost nothing.
PD: I get the book in 1983.

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I found these images in a february 1959 spanish from Popular Mechanics. Al the text is in Spanish language. Is easy for undestand.

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroFuturism/comments/xvogic

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/RetroFuturism/comments/xvogic/from_the_april_1940_issue_of_popular_mechanics_a/

 

[Roodbaard1958!]

from 'Storia Militare', an italian historical magazine, the project of a pre-WWII submarine oil tanker, with carachteristics.






Uploaded with ImageShack.us






Uploaded with ImageShack.us


and, from the same source, drawings and characteristics of the transport submarines R class, of WWII, of the Italian Navy






Uploaded with ImageShack.us






Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hi, do you still possessed that Italian historical magazine, I am interested in the submarine oil tanker

 

[RAP]

Two Popular Mechanics articles, same idea, 24 years apart.

 

[RAP]

Couple more off Flickr.

 

[RP1]

And now for something slightly bonkers: The "Nuclear EEL", a 1969 proposal for a 1400*38ft, 40-50 knot shallow diving (200ft) nuclear powered train ferry for trans-oceanic cargo routes. Extensive use of concrete for permanent ballast, and un/loading performed by hauling the thing part way up a ramp and opening the nose. Being right before containerisation took off, the author focuses on the ease of cargo handling in rail ferries compared to the general cargo ships then in use.

Reference: Whitelaw, RL, "The Nuclear EEL", Mechanical Engineering Nov. 1969.

RP1's comment: Given how much time was spent in handling cargo, pretty much any kind of modularisation; container, rail, barge, was much cheaper. In engineering terms however this thing is bonkers. The L/D ratio is so far off the charts I could only guess what the power required would be. Depth control at speed would be a nightmare - a five degree angle means the bow and stern are 120ft different in depth.