Colours, markings and armament for Hawker P.1103/P.1116/P.1121/P.1125/P.1129

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So, a very talented 3D artist has made 3D models of many different variants of the P.1103/P.1121/P.1125/P.1129 family for my (much delayed) book.

What he needs is some great ideas for colour schemes, armament etc in order to create interesting renders to help bring the book to life.

My own interests are much more in the technical arena so I'm not that sure about this stuff...

Over to you

 

[Abraham Gubler]

If you can explain it being in RAAF service you can have a nice tropical camouflage scheme for the VietNam War. The same for Israel in desert camo. SAAF and you can paint it in their nice looking shades of blue maritime strike colours and later their camo top side and grey sides and belly for the Bush War. India had a cool looking MiG-21 scheme with tiger strips. Canada was still finishing their air defence aircraft (real world McAir Voodoo) in aluminum with a nice red stripe and high vis markings into the 70s. Other good looking schemes (IMHO) are the desert Imperial Iranian Air Force (F-14) and mixed sand and blue/grey of the Islamic Iranian Air Force (MiG-29).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

RAAF, yes, its just about doable as an alternative to the Mirage III buy. South Africa - P.1121/P.1123 or P.1129 instead of Buccaneer maybe if they are seduced by Mach 2 for an attack aircraft. Israel, hard to see Hawker selling it with all the Hunters in Arab service. Egypt is a possibility - press reports indicated consideration of purchase of the P.1121 prototype presumably to be completed in Egypt instead of the HA-300 I assume. India, certainly, they liked the Hunter well enough.

 

[Michel Van]

don't forget export
Belgian Air Component, Royal Netherlands Air Force, German Luftwaffe and Canadian Forces Air Command

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Israel, hard to see Hawker selling it with all the Hunters in Arab service. Egypt is a possibility - press reports indicated consideration of purchase of the P.1121 prototype presumably to be completed in Egypt instead of the HA-300 I assume.

Have to strongly disagree with that. The UK was providing Israel advanced military technology (as long as they paid for it) up until 1967 including the rights to build the Chieftain tank before it was in BAOR service. I very much doubt the UK would sell anything advanced to Egypt with Nasser in control and Soviet military advisors filling the country.

But the objective is to see the P.1121 in a MEAO desert scheme. So since the nationalist Arab states were aligned to the Soviet Union at this period and the Israelis were buying French aircraft perhaps the P.1121 is a better fit to Saudi and Kuwait in place of the Lightning and perhaps as well Oman.

 

[zen]

P1121?

Assuming it flies in 1960, when does an order come forth?
Well there is another batch of Lightings that could have gone to the Hawker machine instead.

But this all being post Suez, we can be sure Egypt is out of the question,
Jordan is too poor, unless a deal is done.

India certainly might opt for it.
Germany could be a contender. Both Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine.
Both those under a licensing deal.
If Germany falls to the P1121, then we could see the Netherlands, Danemark and Norway follow suite.
Sweden might consider it, much as they opted for the Hunter previously.

Israel is one to ponder I agree, depends really on the precise circumstances.

Saudi and Oman is a good case I think.
Kuwait and Qatar? Very limited numbers if so.

Australia another possible, timing is key, but there is no reason to think it would'nt be a contender.

South Africa might be a bit problematic, considering the timing. If an order is early enough it might be fullfilled.

Greece or Turkey? Alwys seems a binary there.

 

[starviking]

I recall an American diplomatic effort to get the UK to Lightnings sold to India, so as to stave off a Mig order. This foundered as we just couldn't afford to subsidize the purchase enough to top the Mig 21. Perhaps if the P.1121 is significantly cheaper than the Lightning such a deal could work?

 

[zen]

Not necessarily likely, but the P1121 was a better machine all round than either the Lightning or the Mig21. It sits somewhere between a Starfighter and the Phantom II.

That said IF the RAF went for the machine in a big way and there was lots of export orders, the cost could be competative.

 

[zen]

So some musings here.

Lightnings.
F.2 authorised in 1958 for 44 machines.
Order for F.3? clearly somehwere in 1961. 70 machines.
F.3A sometime before first flight in '64. 16 built, 14 upgraded F3s.
F.6 likely sometime in 1964, FF in June '65. 39 built, all but one F.3A converted to F.6 standard, and 7 F3.
----------------
If we assume the F.2 is dropped for the P1121, we may have a similar number of machines as single seaters. Armament being Firestreak and later Red Top. Drop tanks of the 150gal and 200gal type. Maybe a gun, but this is the era when such things where thought 'old hat'.
Mk10 IFF sticking out of the airframe at various locations, UHF ariels too.
Might see a strap on rocket pack developed but no fielded.

Question then is would the RAF spend the cash more in way they did'nt on the Lightning?
Radar Red Top is one option there and tandem seaters for true FAW capability.
Secondary strike capability might be included depending on the timing. The '61 order could see HSA's OR.339 variant selected for a multirole type, and a backup should the TSR.2 prove too much or a failure.
So expect Red Beard, WE.177, rocket pods, 300gal tanks, and various panels and blisters for the nav/attack weapons system. Would it get the ventral recess for a bomb? Not sure they'd fork out for that as well.

Bulpup, later Martel missiles. Possibly AS Nord rockets of one type or another.
Could also see some horrendous great recce pod as per that developed for Phantom.

Sidewinder cleared for export. Not sure Sparow.

 

[uk 75]

Some years back I did a thread on Whatifmodelers trying to describe permutations of the RAF
in the 60s onward. The various designs you mention would have been procured in place of analogue
aircraft over the same period.

The RAF squadrons with Lightnings, Canberras and Hunters offer some excellent squadron markings. It is likely that the Hawker designs would have worn similar schemes depending on the aircraft thye replaced and the period. Broadly, between 1960 and 1972 aircraft have the standard green-grey camo with silver or white undersides, or plain all metal finish in the case of the Lightnings. From the 70s to the 80s, wrap over green-grey in matt with red-blue roundels are standard. Squadron markings get smaller and more restrained, except for show aircraft.

The Whatifmodelers site has an excellent Profile and CGI thread section which covers practically every air force and aircraft and period. There are some really good artists there as wellas some experts on counterfactual air power.

Armament is harder. British aircraft tend to suffer from the bells and whistles factor. On the drawing board they are fitted with all sorts of improbable weapons. In service they have tended to be equipped with a few affordable and well tried weapons, notably AIM 9 Sidewinders. Apart from the Firestreak/Red Top family and the later Skyflash version of the Sparrow British weapons in this period are pretty duff (Blue Steel (Rascal copy) Martel (French missile anyway) and so on). Drawing board British weapons are of course legion and well covered in the Secret Projects books. However, most of these missiles look as if they were drawn for the pages of Dan Dare!

Other country users. Here one tends to get into fantasy rather than what-if. It is best to stick to the countries that actually did buy British (Middle East users (Saudi, Kuwait, Jordan, Oman) Latin America (Argentina, Chile, Peru) and some NATO (Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and possibly Germany
(though the influence of the US in this period makes any British buy very unlikely after 1961).

Hope this helps
UK 75

 

[Hammer Birchgrove]

Sweden might consider it, much as they opted for the Hunter previously.

I strongly doubt that. J 34 Hunter was "only" a stop-gap between Saab J 29 Tunnan ("Barrel") and J 35 Draken ("Kite" or "Dragon"), which was bought because it could be purchased faster (and probably cheaper) than the projected but not built day fighter variant of the Saab 32 Lansen ("The Lance"), the J 32AD. I can only see Swedish Air Force wanting it in a What-If? scenario in which Sweden is a NATO-member and either Sweden doesn't have Saab or the P.1103/P.1116/P.1121/P.1125/P.1129 has STOL-capacity (blown flaps?).

STOL-capacity was and still is very important here.