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pavel
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"Colliers" Classic American magazine. The famous number 27 October 1951. Alternative history.
Very good magazine. It is on the Internet.
Very good magazine. It is on the Internet.
Avimimus
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Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
A very interesting edition.
It would actually be interesting to look at some of the anti-Soviet propaganda that existed in the West.
It would be fascinating to find out more about how it was interpreted in the Soviet Union. My father always told me that he had worried that people in Russia would tend to assume these propaganda pieces were representative of U.S. policy. This is especially true as freedom of the press was less in Russia so the press was a bit more likely to represent official positions.
That said - there was plenty of 'official insanity' as well.
A very interesting edition.
It would actually be interesting to look at some of the anti-Soviet propaganda that existed in the West.
It would be fascinating to find out more about how it was interpreted in the Soviet Union. My father always told me that he had worried that people in Russia would tend to assume these propaganda pieces were representative of U.S. policy. This is especially true as freedom of the press was less in Russia so the press was a bit more likely to represent official positions.
That said - there was plenty of 'official insanity' as well.
P
pavel
Guest
Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
----- It would be fascinating to find out more about how it was interpreted in the Soviet Union. ----
In the Soviet Union all the American magazines, books and movies were banned. We and our parents were never seen again. Iron curtain. Magazines "Colliers" people in the USSR have not seen. I learned about "Colliers" in 1989. In the Soviet book about nuclear war: "Ultimatum".
----- My father always told me that he had worried that people in Russia would tend to assume these propaganda pieces were representative of U.S. policy. ------
Yes. Absolute truth. Our parents believed. We do not believe in 1986. I was in the 80s the Soviet pioneers (scout) and Komsomol.
----- It would be fascinating to find out more about how it was interpreted in the Soviet Union. ----
In the Soviet Union all the American magazines, books and movies were banned. We and our parents were never seen again. Iron curtain. Magazines "Colliers" people in the USSR have not seen. I learned about "Colliers" in 1989. In the Soviet book about nuclear war: "Ultimatum".
----- My father always told me that he had worried that people in Russia would tend to assume these propaganda pieces were representative of U.S. policy. ------
Yes. Absolute truth. Our parents believed. We do not believe in 1986. I was in the 80s the Soviet pioneers (scout) and Komsomol.
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Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
Interesting, I seem to remember that as the issue that the creators of two of the more well known characters in WWII era comics (Whose names escape me at the moment.) was asked to revive them for that issue.
Interesting, I seem to remember that as the issue that the creators of two of the more well known characters in WWII era comics (Whose names escape me at the moment.) was asked to revive them for that issue.
P
pavel
Guest
Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
God forbid!
God forbid!
Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
let me translate that for you . The end of the WW II has seen the US replacing the Great Britain as the arbiter of things , at least according to their wishes . As such the traditions of British "controls" are also passed ; replacing the threat of starvation through Naval Blockade by the spectre of anhilation by Nuclear Bombing . The lack of a large and capable standing Army is a deliberate choice by Washington ; its expenses are nothing compared to having large segments of the society within a structure of power . If translated into regular English this means it becomes harder to lord over the Natives , if some damned Liberal is serving as a conscript in the US Army platoon guarding your plantation and has decided to write a long letter to Washington Post or the like on your indiscretions , whippping boys and raping girls . Or perhaps , vice versa . The future belongs to a limited number of like-minded people to control the world and make fortunes out of it . And nothing can stand in the way . Even the esteemed British Intelligence can not cope with the boys from Yale , now formed into the CIA ; in Africa the Americans are so rich that they have -intentionally- driven the bribes sky high and the British are reduced to complaining they can't even call a taxi ...
the stain on this magnificient blueprint for the future of the planet ? Well , the Commies . Stalin's Russia , having survived the terrible onslaughts of Nazism , sees the then New World Order as weak . While America's attempts to play Divide and Conquer have seen tremendous setbacks with the establishment of Red China and the almost simultaneous Korean War . Despite the rosy predictions of having other countries as "Boots on the Ground" throughout the globe , Americans have failed . Instead of having entire nations cowed at the might of atomic bombs , the US has had to fight the very type of the war the it was planning not to fight . Seul to Pusan , Pusan to Yalu , Yalu to Seul are phases of a war that foremost proves the American Nuclear Deterrence is working to stop the WW III and doing nothing else . Washington needs more boots .
from this point on , you are free not to believe in anything ı say ...
the potential is rather obvious , the Turkic minorities of the USSR . Naturally they are all over the place , the Americans . Urging the Islamist Goverment they have installed to "declare" Jihad . In the 1950s , the world still respects a certain type of Turkish officer . In nonstop war of almost two decades , fighting a full blown semi-religious guerilla war in the mountains of Balkans followed by a disasterous series of regular campaigns all over the map . Invaded and yet throwing the invaders out with solid Soviet support . Critical of the attempts in 1914 on behalf of the Germans to create Muslim uprisings , far more harshly critical of similar attempts in the 1940s . Yet somehow balanced . The whole world knows one of the guys who went to Ethiopia to organize against the Italians is writing an history of the Second World War , using a whole set of German documents smuggled out in 1944 and afterwards . By then so many German officers know the full extent of the crimes they have been accessories to and whatever left of their honour might well be only defended by 3rd parties and nobody ever doubts the way Turks are impartial . Translation : Hell , no ... If you check the publication date , it's not even a year after Mc Arthur learned of the full scale Chinese assault and yet sent the Turkish Brigade in Korea forward , unsupported and trucks and the like withdrawn , so that we couldn't run ... Like a pawn placed in front of a knight to save the more valuable piece . Chess is bloodless , the hundreds of casualties that we suffered in Kunuri were not . Even if that made a certain impression on the Russians , enough to retract territorial demands afterwards .
so , you have the Evil Russians attacking a neutral country , Yugoslavia . We are a neutral , too . "Who knew only one god, and that one god was Stalin" is a play on the Islamic phrase that many use in prayers and the like . Though ı protest at the lack of pages 24 and 25 ... It would be so much fun to read the Russian hypocracy .
disgressing back to reality , of course there was a real threat of invasion back then . Now there's this magazine clippings ı have from the 1980s on the Dropshot plan of August 1949 . Which says the Western Europe would be invaded in 20 days and the British Isles knocked out of the war in 60 . Let's just remember those are the days when nobody has an exact grasp on the extent of German design work ; they are crediting medium range jet bombers and nukes to Russians in that hypothetical war that starts in January 1957 ... 1954/55 is the era the Russians might first start fielding an intercontinental bomber force that might drop limited numbers of nukes on the CONUS . Which explains the urgency of USAF programmes , a Mach 2 "1954" interceptor that wasn't the F-102 and all the bombers to fight that war to come .
dropshot apparently thinks a lot about Turkey . It seems we have 11 divisions at the time , so the Russians deploy 33 divisions against us , 3 to 1 advantage of course means they will overrun us as a matter of fact . Takes 5 months to bundle us out of the country , just keeping a pocket around Iskenderun . (12 , if the seasons are harsher than usual. ) One can sense the PR qualities of holding a line from Antakya through Jordan in defense of the all important Suez Canal , like Crusaders against the Saracens ... Now that within 6 months up to 9 American /British divisions might be convoyed in . We are to save as much of our Army as possible and destroy everything in a scorched earth campaign to delay the enemies of Christendom so that the Anglosaxons can play the True Crusade ... It was during Ike's time this came up and the polite smiles made Americans believe it wouldn't be so . This is a reason for Gladio , the NATO Command to organize stay-behind forces through Europe , because creating a Turkey-only organization to shoot Kemalists as collaborators would be too much . Amazing that the SAS has always planned to deploy a substantial part to this country no matter what ; it's even written down in 1949 . ı can't really decipher the picture of the document , but that seems to be a "British Commando" Brigade(?) ... ı don't expect any Russian documentation to suddenly appear to show they didn't expect to cross the Marmara in 5 years , in case they somehow made that far . Or the joke that was going the rounds by the late 1980s when the clowns who were running the show since Seventies had made their name ... At a time when the Western experts declared if we withstood the Red Army for a week , unassisted , we would be legends . While the Russians said we would be besieging Moscow within a week , if America didn't come in ...
the war in Colliers is a mixed bag . Real life Charioteer Plan supposed 133 nuclear strikes within the first 30 days , bases and 70 cities and industrial zones . This might fail to defeat the Soviets so it would take 24 months with 200 nukes as soon as they were assambled and 250 000 tons of conventional bombs . But the plodding assault across Germany ? Yeah , right ... We were very well versed in how the Russians were all for speed , through the German records . The Airdrop at the Urals is a clever prop . America nukes all the factories , no doubt levels Tankograd and absorbs all the Russian counterattacks , with the single exception of unfortunate London . We don't rate a single nuke ? Yeah , America does promise to send in the Commandos . Jumping into a blasted airbase with no radiation hazard ... Teller has always claimed he had the neutron bomb in mind right after the WW II . Page 30-31 ?
the intented audience might be elsewhere but Collier's has to sell in the US . So there's this morbid list of struck American cities . Ignorant savages , the Russians have copied planes from the American B-29s and conduct suicide attacks . Except Hanford , can not tell whether it was shot down or ditched on the Canadian coast . Reds were surely not in possession of Canadian bases , right ? A pro-USAF tone , with so many ports blown up by Russian submarines , though the all important Moscow mission has Navy fighters escorting . Dumb Russians shooting an A-Bomb off the sky yet can not nick one single B-36 ... Yes , victory is inevitable when the car factories in Detroit survive the two nukes ! While the opposition is obviously not that sturdy . Just check the convicts in Siberia who have killed the well fed prison guard behind the watercooled Maxim . Now that they are at war with the Chinese in Korea , American people would have hated the sight of an armed Asiatic so that guy has an axe , being savage he is ...And the Olympics , with proof that the Yellow people still do not eat their carrots . And the Black athlete for the US , claiming the US would surely shed its still existing racial bigotry .
the wounds of war are taken care of . And of course if Pakistan can donate 4.5 million dollars , surely we can do better ... And think of all the scoring to be done with all the Russian widows . Russian female can be awesome , but let's avoid too insulting a discussion of that . But not that submissive , as the handsome conservative lawyer / Major of America imposes his will on the defeated . In 1951 they are really working hard to forget all those Russian women who did particularly bad things to Nazis . Or maybe not , with the typical femme fatale , Russian chick-spy angle rearing up immediately ... Unfortunately the story is cut short , with we of the 21st Century unable to learn the ways to stock our harems . Though the programme of slave labouring is kinda cool , the way it's sugar coated .
the editorial is on the other hand is typically bland , warning the Commies to embrace Capitalism or else ... Though the claim the issue contains no careless fantasy or easy invention can be surely mocked . People are not allowed to see the bomb that will level Moscow , while so many bombers are flying a wheel of death , all converging to the blast zone . We have seen the Neutron bomb already , it's now less flashy , too ? And the mysterious cover picture ? It shows the inevitable liberation of enslaved countries . Despite all those claims of no persecution , Ukraine the breadbasket is taken away . Not as the Rheinland occupied by the Allies . They have to offer territorial concessions to those Commie regimes to defect - taking land from Poland to give to the Czechs and Poles might take it from ... and in the final analysis Russians will be the final losers , with a rump Ukraine as the result . Though it will be free and the foreign advisors needed for it to function will tend to be Germans , you know ODESSA ... Now that we would be loathe to have some Nazis on our doorstep , we have to be taken care of , too . If we have come this far , the awesomely great UN forces will occupy Crimea in the last formal battles of the war . If we are that good , ı don't why we don't just hang Truman from a lamp-post and be done with it .
oh , ı am not done yet . A full complaint about the strategically cut Mechanix page ... We learn of the super bombers of Hottentots who were massacred by the Germans at the beginning of the century , yet no clear type indication is available . After reading the text "if the planes carried standart U. S. Air Force markings indicating they were experimental types" it's really obvious that the Russians were fielding B-47s . While documentally true , that won't make me very popular around here ...
let me translate that for you . The end of the WW II has seen the US replacing the Great Britain as the arbiter of things , at least according to their wishes . As such the traditions of British "controls" are also passed ; replacing the threat of starvation through Naval Blockade by the spectre of anhilation by Nuclear Bombing . The lack of a large and capable standing Army is a deliberate choice by Washington ; its expenses are nothing compared to having large segments of the society within a structure of power . If translated into regular English this means it becomes harder to lord over the Natives , if some damned Liberal is serving as a conscript in the US Army platoon guarding your plantation and has decided to write a long letter to Washington Post or the like on your indiscretions , whippping boys and raping girls . Or perhaps , vice versa . The future belongs to a limited number of like-minded people to control the world and make fortunes out of it . And nothing can stand in the way . Even the esteemed British Intelligence can not cope with the boys from Yale , now formed into the CIA ; in Africa the Americans are so rich that they have -intentionally- driven the bribes sky high and the British are reduced to complaining they can't even call a taxi ...
the stain on this magnificient blueprint for the future of the planet ? Well , the Commies . Stalin's Russia , having survived the terrible onslaughts of Nazism , sees the then New World Order as weak . While America's attempts to play Divide and Conquer have seen tremendous setbacks with the establishment of Red China and the almost simultaneous Korean War . Despite the rosy predictions of having other countries as "Boots on the Ground" throughout the globe , Americans have failed . Instead of having entire nations cowed at the might of atomic bombs , the US has had to fight the very type of the war the it was planning not to fight . Seul to Pusan , Pusan to Yalu , Yalu to Seul are phases of a war that foremost proves the American Nuclear Deterrence is working to stop the WW III and doing nothing else . Washington needs more boots .
from this point on , you are free not to believe in anything ı say ...
the potential is rather obvious , the Turkic minorities of the USSR . Naturally they are all over the place , the Americans . Urging the Islamist Goverment they have installed to "declare" Jihad . In the 1950s , the world still respects a certain type of Turkish officer . In nonstop war of almost two decades , fighting a full blown semi-religious guerilla war in the mountains of Balkans followed by a disasterous series of regular campaigns all over the map . Invaded and yet throwing the invaders out with solid Soviet support . Critical of the attempts in 1914 on behalf of the Germans to create Muslim uprisings , far more harshly critical of similar attempts in the 1940s . Yet somehow balanced . The whole world knows one of the guys who went to Ethiopia to organize against the Italians is writing an history of the Second World War , using a whole set of German documents smuggled out in 1944 and afterwards . By then so many German officers know the full extent of the crimes they have been accessories to and whatever left of their honour might well be only defended by 3rd parties and nobody ever doubts the way Turks are impartial . Translation : Hell , no ... If you check the publication date , it's not even a year after Mc Arthur learned of the full scale Chinese assault and yet sent the Turkish Brigade in Korea forward , unsupported and trucks and the like withdrawn , so that we couldn't run ... Like a pawn placed in front of a knight to save the more valuable piece . Chess is bloodless , the hundreds of casualties that we suffered in Kunuri were not . Even if that made a certain impression on the Russians , enough to retract territorial demands afterwards .
so , you have the Evil Russians attacking a neutral country , Yugoslavia . We are a neutral , too . "Who knew only one god, and that one god was Stalin" is a play on the Islamic phrase that many use in prayers and the like . Though ı protest at the lack of pages 24 and 25 ... It would be so much fun to read the Russian hypocracy .
disgressing back to reality , of course there was a real threat of invasion back then . Now there's this magazine clippings ı have from the 1980s on the Dropshot plan of August 1949 . Which says the Western Europe would be invaded in 20 days and the British Isles knocked out of the war in 60 . Let's just remember those are the days when nobody has an exact grasp on the extent of German design work ; they are crediting medium range jet bombers and nukes to Russians in that hypothetical war that starts in January 1957 ... 1954/55 is the era the Russians might first start fielding an intercontinental bomber force that might drop limited numbers of nukes on the CONUS . Which explains the urgency of USAF programmes , a Mach 2 "1954" interceptor that wasn't the F-102 and all the bombers to fight that war to come .
dropshot apparently thinks a lot about Turkey . It seems we have 11 divisions at the time , so the Russians deploy 33 divisions against us , 3 to 1 advantage of course means they will overrun us as a matter of fact . Takes 5 months to bundle us out of the country , just keeping a pocket around Iskenderun . (12 , if the seasons are harsher than usual. ) One can sense the PR qualities of holding a line from Antakya through Jordan in defense of the all important Suez Canal , like Crusaders against the Saracens ... Now that within 6 months up to 9 American /British divisions might be convoyed in . We are to save as much of our Army as possible and destroy everything in a scorched earth campaign to delay the enemies of Christendom so that the Anglosaxons can play the True Crusade ... It was during Ike's time this came up and the polite smiles made Americans believe it wouldn't be so . This is a reason for Gladio , the NATO Command to organize stay-behind forces through Europe , because creating a Turkey-only organization to shoot Kemalists as collaborators would be too much . Amazing that the SAS has always planned to deploy a substantial part to this country no matter what ; it's even written down in 1949 . ı can't really decipher the picture of the document , but that seems to be a "British Commando" Brigade(?) ... ı don't expect any Russian documentation to suddenly appear to show they didn't expect to cross the Marmara in 5 years , in case they somehow made that far . Or the joke that was going the rounds by the late 1980s when the clowns who were running the show since Seventies had made their name ... At a time when the Western experts declared if we withstood the Red Army for a week , unassisted , we would be legends . While the Russians said we would be besieging Moscow within a week , if America didn't come in ...
the war in Colliers is a mixed bag . Real life Charioteer Plan supposed 133 nuclear strikes within the first 30 days , bases and 70 cities and industrial zones . This might fail to defeat the Soviets so it would take 24 months with 200 nukes as soon as they were assambled and 250 000 tons of conventional bombs . But the plodding assault across Germany ? Yeah , right ... We were very well versed in how the Russians were all for speed , through the German records . The Airdrop at the Urals is a clever prop . America nukes all the factories , no doubt levels Tankograd and absorbs all the Russian counterattacks , with the single exception of unfortunate London . We don't rate a single nuke ? Yeah , America does promise to send in the Commandos . Jumping into a blasted airbase with no radiation hazard ... Teller has always claimed he had the neutron bomb in mind right after the WW II . Page 30-31 ?
the intented audience might be elsewhere but Collier's has to sell in the US . So there's this morbid list of struck American cities . Ignorant savages , the Russians have copied planes from the American B-29s and conduct suicide attacks . Except Hanford , can not tell whether it was shot down or ditched on the Canadian coast . Reds were surely not in possession of Canadian bases , right ? A pro-USAF tone , with so many ports blown up by Russian submarines , though the all important Moscow mission has Navy fighters escorting . Dumb Russians shooting an A-Bomb off the sky yet can not nick one single B-36 ... Yes , victory is inevitable when the car factories in Detroit survive the two nukes ! While the opposition is obviously not that sturdy . Just check the convicts in Siberia who have killed the well fed prison guard behind the watercooled Maxim . Now that they are at war with the Chinese in Korea , American people would have hated the sight of an armed Asiatic so that guy has an axe , being savage he is ...And the Olympics , with proof that the Yellow people still do not eat their carrots . And the Black athlete for the US , claiming the US would surely shed its still existing racial bigotry .
the wounds of war are taken care of . And of course if Pakistan can donate 4.5 million dollars , surely we can do better ... And think of all the scoring to be done with all the Russian widows . Russian female can be awesome , but let's avoid too insulting a discussion of that . But not that submissive , as the handsome conservative lawyer / Major of America imposes his will on the defeated . In 1951 they are really working hard to forget all those Russian women who did particularly bad things to Nazis . Or maybe not , with the typical femme fatale , Russian chick-spy angle rearing up immediately ... Unfortunately the story is cut short , with we of the 21st Century unable to learn the ways to stock our harems . Though the programme of slave labouring is kinda cool , the way it's sugar coated .
the editorial is on the other hand is typically bland , warning the Commies to embrace Capitalism or else ... Though the claim the issue contains no careless fantasy or easy invention can be surely mocked . People are not allowed to see the bomb that will level Moscow , while so many bombers are flying a wheel of death , all converging to the blast zone . We have seen the Neutron bomb already , it's now less flashy , too ? And the mysterious cover picture ? It shows the inevitable liberation of enslaved countries . Despite all those claims of no persecution , Ukraine the breadbasket is taken away . Not as the Rheinland occupied by the Allies . They have to offer territorial concessions to those Commie regimes to defect - taking land from Poland to give to the Czechs and Poles might take it from ... and in the final analysis Russians will be the final losers , with a rump Ukraine as the result . Though it will be free and the foreign advisors needed for it to function will tend to be Germans , you know ODESSA ... Now that we would be loathe to have some Nazis on our doorstep , we have to be taken care of , too . If we have come this far , the awesomely great UN forces will occupy Crimea in the last formal battles of the war . If we are that good , ı don't why we don't just hang Truman from a lamp-post and be done with it .
oh , ı am not done yet . A full complaint about the strategically cut Mechanix page ... We learn of the super bombers of Hottentots who were massacred by the Germans at the beginning of the century , yet no clear type indication is available . After reading the text "if the planes carried standart U. S. Air Force markings indicating they were experimental types" it's really obvious that the Russians were fielding B-47s . While documentally true , that won't make me very popular around here ...
P
pavel
Guest
Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
Sir, I am Russian and I live in Russia, 44 years old. My parents - Soviet ordinary people. I really do not like conspiracy theories.
Sir, I am Russian and I live in Russia, 44 years old. My parents - Soviet ordinary people. I really do not like conspiracy theories.
P
pavel
Guest
Re: "Colliers" October 27, 1951. The Third World War. Testament.
This magazine is available on the Internet. This number. I removed all these pages.
This magazine is available on the Internet. This number. I removed all these pages.
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