Coatings to make spider silks non-sticky?

[Avimimus]

Hello,

I have a couple of projects which could do with fine strings - and the properties of spider-webs are quite admirable. The only problem is that they tend to stick to themselves if they ever double up.

So I need to apply a coating. It has to be able to prevent self binding, be light weight and be able to flex/fracture as the spider silk stretches.

Oh, and before anyone suggests it - I don't have the ability to synthesis carbon nanotubules in sufficient quality.

 

[_Del_]

Spiders also make non-sticky strings. Not sure how you could harvest that except perhaps by genetically engineering a spider. Actually, I seem to recall goats producing spider silk proteins as well. A NOVA episode, I believe.

Edit: found it http://phys.org/news194539934.html

 

[Avimimus]

Yeah, that would require me catching a genetically engineered goat though (while technically I'd be rustling it).

I suppose I could use drop threads that spiders use when scared. But it might be easier just to coat some cobwebs in some special kind of wax.

 

[_Del_]

Well, if you want to do it the easy way...

Perhaps simply a talc or baby powder might work? Seems easier than trying to coat them in wax and waiting for the wax to dry. Worth a shot?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Proposal for a series of tests: use an airbrush on *very* low pressure, spraying a mix of solvents and test coatings.

Solvents: mineral spirits/paint thinner, alcohol, acetone, MEK, naptha
Coatings: silicone caulking (require a *lot* of thinning with mineral spirits), silicone lubricant, white glue (water thinned), lacquer, shellac, epoxy resin (acetone thinned), paint (might be able to get away with using a good rattlecan here)

If you want white, try a slurry of something like acetone and magnesium oxide. black, use carbon black. Both of these can be made at home, so long as you have magnesium, a sheet of glass, and a tolerance for a blinding white fire that can vaporize your very soul.

A simple series of tests, easily conducted by a single person using some basic equipment, including good ventilation and a good breathing mask rated for solvents, so long as cobwebs are readily available. Actual cost: a few hundred $$. When it comes time to propose this to the US FedGuv, be sure to state in the proposal that you're reasonably sure you can do these tests for, oh, two million $$.

 

[Bill Walker]

From what I remember from high school biology, not all spider threads are sticky. Spiders that spin webs leave "routes" of non-sticky threads that they travel on to reach trapped prey. Now, how you tell which is which is beyond me. Logic suggests that the radial threads might be non-sticky and the spirals sticky, but I'm not a spider. Maybe needs a little experimentation. Much cheaper than OBB's proposal.

 

[Avimimus]

Thanks guys - I'll have a lot of possible options for this spring.

 

[Desert Dawn]

I would HIGHLY suggest to NEVER spray MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) as it is Very corrosive and will make you go blind if you get any of the mist anywhere near your eyes (not to mention what it will do to your exposed skin.

Unless you wear a full rubber suit, don't even contemplate it.

As for the "proposals" from the user above to play and mix chemicals with other highly flammable and explosive substances such as magnesium, you should know it is not the smartest nor the most legal thing to do to entice people into trying things like that.

 

[_Del_]

I thought that " and a tolerance for a blinding white fire that can vaporize your very soul" was enough to show that the comment was tongue in cheek -- or atleast i hope so!

 

[Rickshaw]

I've heard that EZ-line elasticised thread - http://www.modelsrgo.co.uk/ez-line-rigging-thread-charcoal-100-feet-heavy-0.15mm.html is excellent for rigging WWI aircraft (and other things) models.

Apparently it is easy to use. One post over at Whatif models suggested:

Cut it shorter than the gap (by about 20%), anchor one end, dab superglue on the model at the other, dab zip kicker on free end of thread, use tweezers to stretch thread until it reaches glue and BOOM. I used to use "invisible" nylon thread but drilling and then later filling all the holes is a monumental pain in the wahooti fandango. Plus, elastic thread always stays under tension.

 

[Desert Dawn]

I thought that " and a tolerance for a blinding white fire that can vaporize your very soul" was enough to show that the comment was tongue in cheek -- or atleast i hope so!

It`s not a laughing matter and should not be taken with a flippant attitude. You know there are kids and teens on most aviation forums i frequent, not to mention participants from some countries whose mastery of the English language might not be on the same level as those who were born say in the UK. I've seen complete idiots play with magnesium and try to set it on fire before and had to dissuade them from doing so. In one case i had to run after them after they tried to set the neighbor`s house on fire. And guess what: they got arrested.

 

[Orionblamblam]

It`s not a laughing matter and should not be taken with a flippant attitude.

You're right. Everything in life should be viewed, and lived, as if it was the most dour, depressing thing ever.

As for spraying MEK, you seem to be blowing it a bit out of proportion. Spraying it in a properly ventilated and ducted paint-box would seem reasonable: http://www.chemical.net/home/safety_mek.htm

Perhaps you have MEK confused with antimatter?

 

[Desert Dawn]

Ha, ha, ha.

No, seriously, i know people who have sprayed polyester resin (which is catalyzed by MEK) who ended up at the hospital. I know people who did NOT even spray polyester resin and who just breathed the fumes (from cans which were just stored in their workplace) who ended up in hospital. I know people who get allergic reaction when you just show a piece of cast polyester resin to them (because of the above). Depending on the make, brand, composition, you may get stuff that runs from relatively benign (in terms of risks to the health) to severe. Some of that stuff will cause damage to the central nervous system. I always roll my eyes when i see guys in sales brochures from big manufacturers pouring dangerous and corrosive materials (i won`t name the brands but i know one of the guys personally, and we are talking sales managers or engineers). They all know that if they show on their ad pictures someone wearing an NBC suit working with their product, their stuff will stay on the tablets, so they show guys working leisurely with thin little disposable gloves, short sleeves and no mask whatsoever... When i saw the numbers in the red triangle warnings on the MSDS for one of those, i said forget it, too risky. I can only imagine the health results on a guy who would work with that product all year long with that kind of 'protection'...

I've seen people with chemical burns and in state of shock once at the hospital due to polyurethane foam sticking and hardening on their skin (the kind that you can get off the counter at hardware stores and spray to fill gaps around window frames). The doctors were not informed about polyurethane resin and foams, they plucked the material that had hardened on the skin of the guy with tweezers, piece by piece, and bits of flesh along with it.

I got my own (very small) chemical burn on a finger when a latex glove punctured while casting resin last year. I only realized it after i had done my casting run. Even with the proper protective equipment you have to constantly be alert and be careful. Liquid resin can seep along the gloves and get into your sleeve, etc, etc. Drops of resin can get into your eyes... (a few years ago i often found tiny drops that hardened on the surface of my eye correction glasses after a casting run, sufficient to cause cornea damage if i had not worn anything, so now i wear safety goggles on top of them, better safe than sorry). You should always wear safety goggles while working with chemicals. That material (polyurethane) will dessicate and harden your skin in the affected area. And the affected area may become painful if you put pressure on it.

So if you want to avoid problems, you wear proper protective gear. It`s just a good safe work habit to develop.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Ha, ha, ha.

No, seriously, i know people who have sprayed polyester resin (which is catalyzed by MEK) who ended up at the hospital.

That's nice. It's also somewhat irrelevant, since no suggestion to spray polyester resin was given.

So if you want to avoid problems, you wear proper protective gear.

Wrap that rascal.

And remember, special care must be taken when working with dihydrogen monoxide. That crap kills *many* people every year. Why it hasn't been banned yet... must be that Congress has been bought off by Big Chemical.

 

[Rickshaw]

As usual there are some who are cavalier with their own safety and the safety of others. Materials safety advisories are created for good reason. Occ.Health and Safety advice is not created merely because some people are wimps and are afraid of their own shadows. However, as you appear to believe you are bullet proof to everything including Nuclear, Chemical and perhaps even Biological materials, your attitudes to Desert Dawn's views are hardly surprising :

 

[Orionblamblam]

Shrug. Some people see risks and decide to not even try.

And thus... bureaucrats.

 

[Rickshaw]

Shrug. Some people see risks and decide to not even try.

You see this merely as a risk that can be managed. Others with more knowledge see it as a danger that cannot. Who should we believe you, the rank amateur or the professional safety inspectors?

And thus... bureaucrats.

By all all means, continue with your attitude. It will earn you a Darwin Award.

 

[Orionblamblam]

You see this merely as a risk that can be managed. Others with more knowledge see it as a danger that cannot.

Cannot be managed. CANNOT. IMPOSSIBLE.

Lovely worldview ya got there. Sure, it's directly at odds with the fact that lots of successful businesses are predicated on the process of spraying nasty chemicals, but hey... it has been decreed. CANNOT BE MANAGED.

By all all means, continue with your attitude. It will earn you a Darwin Award.

Or a patent. Oh, wait, already got a couple.

Life is full of danger. One must learn to balance risk with reward. The reward for de-sticky-ing cobwebs? Low. But when you start with the assumption that spraying solvents is an unmanagable risk, you have just decreed that spraypaint is a dire threat that must be avoided at all costs.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I thought that " and a tolerance for a blinding white fire that can vaporize your very soul" was enough to show that the comment was tongue in cheek

The thing you have to understand is that some people have a desperate need for drama, and thus an offhand comment or suggestion, no matter how obviously unlikely, satirical or just plain silly, is a cause to go to Keyboard War.

 

[sferrin]

As usual there are some who are cavalier with their own safety and the safety of others. Materials safety advisories are created for good reason. Occ.Health and Safety advice is not created merely because some people are wimps and are afraid of their own shadows. However, as you appear to believe you are bullet proof to everything including Nuclear, Chemical and perhaps even Biological materials, your attitudes to Desert Dawn's views are hardly surprising :

Strike a little too close to home for you? The only people in danger from MEK are the dumb ones. (PS, don't use latex gloves when handling it. LOL)

 

[Orionblamblam]

The only people in danger from MEK are the dumb ones.

Sadly, those are the ones that everything must be tailored for. They're why everything must be slathered with warning signs.

 

[Rickshaw]

As usual there are some who are cavalier with their own safety and the safety of others. Materials safety advisories are created for good reason. Occ.Health and Safety advice is not created merely because some people are wimps and are afraid of their own shadows. However, as you appear to believe you are bullet proof to everything including Nuclear, Chemical and perhaps even Biological materials, your attitudes to Desert Dawn's views are hardly surprising :

Strike a little too close to home for you? The only people in danger from MEK are the dumb ones. (PS, don't use latex gloves when handling it. LOL)

Nope, not in the slightest. I am not afraid of my own shadow. You appear to be another who believes they are invulnerable. Tell me, do you eat plants that are known to be poisonous, dive into shallow pools or pick up pieces of broken glass, simply because you don't believe the warnings? I am merely cautious and listen/read warnings knowing they are there for a purpose.

The only people who are in danger of MEK in this sort of situation are the ignorant and I'd suggest those who are cavalier about the matter are wilfully ignorant.

 

[Arjen]

 

[sferrin]

or pick up pieces of broken glass, simply because you don't believe the warnings? I am merely cautious and listen/read warnings knowing they are there for a purpose.

So you just leave broken glass laying around for somebody to step on because you're afraid to pick it up? Nice. And warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary. "Don't stick your head in the whirling blade because you will get cut." "Don't shoot yourself with this firearm because you could die." I swear, the manual that came with one of my handguns was more RED warnings than directions. So yes, warning are there so dumb people don't hurt themselves. (Actually they're there so the manufacturer is protected from lawyers. Stupid people still hurt themselves.)

 

[Arjen]

...warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary...

Beg to differ.

Warning labels exist to remind everyone, including the intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable people, they're dealing with danger. Because experienced people sometimes forget. And because inexperienced people deserve the chance to survive their first contact.

 

[sferrin]

...warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary...

Beg to differ.

Warning labels exist to remind everyone, including the intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable people, they're dealing with danger. Because experienced people sometimes forget. And because inexperienced people deserve the chance to survive their first contact.

What "intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable" person would stick their hand in a running lawn-mower? Perhaps our definitions of "intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable" differ.

 

[Arjen]

What "intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable" person would stick their hand in a running lawn-mower?

Somebody who is distracted. It happens. Little things like warning labels are there to draw attention to important information. Sometimes they're the difference between an embarrassed student and a dead one.

One of my experiences with laboratory life involved another student who committed a booboo with cyanide. He was rushed out just in time. Until then, when dealing with chemicals, I was simply careful to read labels, notice warnings, etcetera. Afterwards, I read them religiously. Also, I had learned that even intelligent people can act remarkably stupid when they are distracted.

When I'm aware I'm not at the top of my game, I tend to avoid stuff that's marked like this (these signs have helped me to survive):

 

[sferrin]

What "intelligent, experienced, knowledgeable" person would stick their hand in a running lawn-mower?

Somebody who is distracted. It happens. Little things like warning labels are there to draw attention to important information. Sometimes they're the difference between an embarrassed student and a dead one.

One of my experiences with laboratory life involved another student who committed a booboo with cyanide. He was rushed out just in time. Until then, when dealing with chemicals, I was simply careful to read labels, notice warnings, etcetera. Afterwards, I read them religiously. Also, I had learned that even intelligent people can act remarkably stupid when they are distracted.

When I'm aware I'm not at the top of my game, I tend to avoid stuff that's marked like this (these signs have helped me to survive):

So you're saying a "distracted" individual might not notice a whirling lawnmower blade but somehow they WOULD notice a warning label telling them about the whirling blade? Really?

 

[Arjen]

Yes. It happens. Sometimes the mere sight of a yellow triangle makes people notice. Also, it helps inexperienced people notice - if they pay attention.

You hate warning signs. Not my problem.

 

[Orionblamblam]

You hate warning signs.

I would suspect not... more a recognition that something potentially useful has been over-used to the point of being silly and counter productive.

Not my problem.

How certain are you of that? Consider the car alarm. I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember when a car alarm going off actually caused people to sit up and take notice. But the things going off became so common that nowadays most people just ignore them. The same can and does happen with warning labels and signs. On the one hand you'll have people who will simply become blind to them, and other people who will begin to view them with contempt. And even if you are diligent in observing all the myriad warnings that are pasted all over, if a large fraction of the public simply learns to ignore them, and another large fraction seeks to defy them, and another large fraction becomes some fearful that they help stifle progress... that can quickly become very much *your* *problem.*

 

[Arjen]

It's a bad thing if people ignore the important warning signs because they're lost in a flood of nonsensical warnings. Maybe warning labels are less proliferated down where I live, because personally, I don't perceive a glut of them.

Anyway. I still notice warning labels. If you visit Amsterdam's zoo, and choose to ignore this sign because heeding warning signs is a threat to your manhood, it really isn't my problem. You'll just be providing some welcome distraction - and lunch - to its lodgers. They cost an arm and a leg in upkeep, any donations are welcome.

 

[Rickshaw]

or pick up pieces of broken glass, simply because you don't believe the warnings? I am merely cautious and listen/read warnings knowing they are there for a purpose.

So you just leave broken glass laying around for somebody to step on because you're afraid to pick it up? Nice. And warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary. "Don't stick your head in the whirling blade because you will get cut." "Don't shoot yourself with this firearm because you could die." I swear, the manual that came with one of my handguns was more RED warnings than directions. So yes, warning are there so dumb people don't hurt themselves. (Actually they're there so the manufacturer is protected from lawyers. Stupid people still hurt themselves.)

You really do seem to be enjoying yourself erecting these strawman arguments.

If you do need to know, I would sweep the glass up, not pick it up with my bare hands. Only a silly billy would pick it up in their bare hands. :

 

[Rickshaw]

people who will begin to view them with contempt.

Like you?

And that therefore leaves you vulnerable to your own stupidity.

You really do carry your anarchist beliefs to ridiculous extremes, you realise that? :

 

[sferrin]

or pick up pieces of broken glass, simply because you don't believe the warnings? I am merely cautious and listen/read warnings knowing they are there for a purpose.

So you just leave broken glass laying around for somebody to step on because you're afraid to pick it up? Nice. And warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary. "Don't stick your head in the whirling blade because you will get cut." "Don't shoot yourself with this firearm because you could die." I swear, the manual that came with one of my handguns was more RED warnings than directions. So yes, warning are there so dumb people don't hurt themselves. (Actually they're there so the manufacturer is protected from lawyers. Stupid people still hurt themselves.)

You really do seem to be enjoying yourself erecting these strawman arguments.

If you do need to know, I would sweep the glass up, not pick it up with my bare hands. Only a silly billy would pick it up in their bare hands. :

I don't know, it doesn't have a warning label on it. How would you know not to pick it up with your bare hands without a warning label on it? As for "straw man" it's funny how people like you cry "straw man" to try to defend rediculous viewpoints. It's like the modern knee-jerk.

 

[Arjen]

...try to defend rediculous[sic] viewpoints...

Case in point:

...warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary...

One would think you'd be grateful

 

[sferrin]

...try to defend rediculous[sic] viewpoints...

Case in point:

...warning labels are there because stupid people made them necessary...

One would think you'd be grateful

Not at all. The world would be a better place if Darwin were allowed a bit more freedom.

 

[Orionblamblam]

You really do carry your anarchist beliefs to ridiculous extremes, you realise that? :

You really do revel in ignorance.

 

[Jemiba]

There are pros and cons for most things, so for warnings and warning labels, too.
I think, those points were exensively discussed now and the tone is starting to be
... interesting, to say the least.
Perhaps we could come back to the original topic, which was about sticky spider silk,
do you remember ?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Perhaps we could come back to the original topic, which was about sticky spider silk,
do you remember ?

Indeed. So, does anyone have any better ideas than solvents to melt off the "glue," or very-much-thinned coatings to absorb/negate the "glue?" Clouds of very, very fine dust (the previously mentioned talc, frex) might do the trick without the need for solvents or spraying systems... but then you have to worry about getting it in your lungs or the stuff exploding.

 

[Avimimus]

Explosions aren't as much of an issue at these tiny quantities (and if handled properly). Inhalation risks (especially if processing is involved), light weight and durability are what I'd focus on.

There are pros and cons for most things, so for warnings and warning labels, too.
I think, those points were exensively discussed now and the tone is starting to be
... interesting, to say the least.
Perhaps we could come back to the original topic, which was about sticky spider silk,
do you remember ?

Thanks - it is funny how most times I raise the subject of flying miniature kites using spider silk people respond with extensive discussions of the mandate of safety review boards - and which member of the conversation is most able to be trusted with nuclear armaments...