China’s slowdown, financial mayhem cast long shadow across world (WashPost)

Grey Havoc

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/11/chinas-slowdown-financial-mayhem-cast-long-shadow-across-world/ (Registration may be required.)

This will certainly have an impact on current and planned aircraft/related orders as well as program rollouts.
 
Grey Havoc said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/11/chinas-slowdown-financial-mayhem-cast-long-shadow-across-world/ (Registration may be required.)

This will certainly have an impact on current and planned aircraft/related orders as well as program rollouts.

It might, it really depends on what the economy is actually growing at.

It's been discussed in a few other forums right now as well, that a lot of media outlets seem to be deliberately giving voice to the pessimists and bears, and that it has become more mainstream in the last few months to challenge China's economic numbers. And let's be honest here, the Washington Post isn't exactly the fairest outlet when reporting on China matters.

There are still a number of pretty substantial institutions whose predictions of China's growth in 2016 to be in line with China's own predicted growth rates.
(From CKGSB -- btw anyone with a cursory interest in Chinese economic matters should checkout their website, http://knowledge.ckgsb.edu.cn/)
zGEA12X.jpg



Underlying this all, I think, is the stock market fall, which many observers tend to equate to the state of the real economy. It was mentioned back in June/August last year that the relationship between China's stock market and economy is very different to the relationship in western stock markets and their economies. Essentially, China's stock markets are not reflective of its economic health, and it is actually notoriously volatile. If one looks back at China's stock market in the last fifteen years, one can see that volatility quite obviously in comparison to say the indices of more developed stock markets.

The article below (a recent one) has a good summary for anyone interested.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/dont-blame-economy-chinas-latest-125222075.html

Don't blame the economy for China's latest market meltdown
Reuters
January 11, 2016 9:41 AM

By Xiaoyi Shao and Pete Sweeney

BEIJING/SHANGHAI (Reuters) - A renewed plunge in Chinese stock markets has stoked concerns among global investors about the health of the world's second-biggest economy, but there is little evidence that the outlook for China has darkened dramatically in recent weeks.

China's economy lost steam steadily through 2015 and economists are split over when they expect it to bottom out. Auto and property sales are showing signs of life, however, and few are predicting the kind of "hard landing" that the recent tumble in share prices might suggest

"I think there is little connection between the falling stock markets and the real economy," said Shen Lan, an economist at Standard Chartered in Beijing. "Actually, economic indicators in November already showed the economy gained more momentum."

China has topped investors' concerns at the start of 2016, with a 10 percent slide in Chinese equities last week triggering a broad sell-off in riskier assets. China's benchmark share indexes fell a further 5 percent on Monday.

Manufacturing and investment, the twin engines of China's breakneck growth over three decades, have been suffering a prolonged slowdown as Beijing attempts to guide its economy on to a more sustainable path led by domestic consumption.

The problem for policymakers has been that consumers have not been able to pick up the slack fast enough to offset falling industrial demand.

"The economy is likely to slow further in 2016 as a result of persistent excessive capacity problems," wrote analysts at OCBC Bank in their outlook for the current year.

"On a positive note, the transition towards a service and consumption-driven economy is likely to provide a buffer to China's growth. Therefore, we expect China to grow around 6.7 percent in 2016."

Analysts at Nomura were more pessimistic, predicting growth to slip below 6 percent this year, but added: "We believe systemic risk remains under control and do not expect a hard landing any time soon."

Figures for 2015 are due to be released on Jan 19. Growth is expected to have cooled to its slowest pace in 25 years of 6.9 percent in 2015 from 7.3 percent in 2014, a central bank work paper said recently.

CONSUMERS TAKE THE STRAIN?

China's services sector has been one of the few bright spots of the economy over the last year, and an official measure of the sector showed activity at a 16-month high in December, although a private-sector survey was more subdued.

Vehicle sales rose in November, and are forecast to grow 5-7 percent in 2016, faster than the 3 percent expected for 2015, while January-November property sales numbers showed a modest improvement.

There is also some anecdotal evidence that Chinese consumers are not expecting the economy to go over a cliff.

The Beijing Morning Post reported that many restaurants in the capital are fully booked for Chinese New Year's Eve early next month - suggesting more people are planning to go out and spend rather than following the tradition of preparing their "reunion dinner" at home - while the latest "Star Wars" movie just enjoyed a record-breaking opening weekend in China.

"We think China's economy is stabilising in the fourth quarter," said Zhou Jingtong, an analyst at Bank of China in Beijing.

"There are no signs that the economy is getting worse, as official PMI improved in December. The consumer prices remained high while the factory-gate prices did not drop further."

London-based Capital Economics said in a note last week that recent data had been better than was expected a few months ago, suggesting the economy was at least stabilising, but that the improvements had so far been "too small to shift market sentiment".

That sentiment is notoriously fickle in China's volatile stock markets, which began 2015 on a record-breaking tear before swooning around 40 percent in a mid-year crash.

Such volatility is partly due to the peculiar make-up of a market where 80 percent of transactions are made by retail investors - a sharp contrast to Western markets where institutional and professional investors dominate.

Analysts point out that China's stock markets also have less impact on the real economy than those elsewhere.

Chinese companies rely more on bank loans and less on capital markets for their funding than Western peers and investors make up only a small fraction of China's huge population - there were just under 100 million retail investors at the end of 2015, data from China Securities Depository and Clearing Corporation showed, in a country of 1.3 billion.

"China's equity markets move independently of its economy," said the note from Capital Economics.

(Reporting by Xiaoyi Shao; Writing by Alex Richardson; Editing by Neil Fullick)
 
Question: "Why is this a discussion in the *Aerospace* forum?"

Answer: So where should it be?
 
Re: China’s slowdown, financial mayhem cast long shadow across world (WashPost)

latenlazy said:
Why is this a discussion in the *Aerospace* forum?

Does secretprojects have an "off topic" forum?

For instance, SDF has a "member's club room" sub forum where various non-military related threads exist, including one about economics.
 
Blitzo said:
latenlazy said:
Why is this a discussion in the *Aerospace* forum?

Does secretprojects have an "off topic" forum?

For instance, SDF has a "member's club room" sub forum where various non-military related threads exist, including one about economics.

Turns out secretprojects does have such a forum. Could a mod please move it over?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,13.0.html
 
I placed this in Aerospace because the current situation is likely to have a direct impact on aerospace programs, and a severe one at that.
 
Grey Havoc said:
I placed this in Aerospace because the current situation is likely to have a direct impact on aerospace programs, and a severe one at that.

The problem is that the discussion itself will still be about economics, because there would likely be substantial debate as to just what the "current situation" is like. There is substantial debate among the big institutions and experts regarding just what China's economy is like and how fast it is actually growing, and it would be presumptuous of us to assume one end of the predictions are true and ignoring the other.

Even if the situation was as bad as the bears make it out to be, we have far from any information as to how that could influence the world's procurement, or China's procurement and development of new projects.
 
http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0002679818

Airbus CEO Fabrice Bregier largely shrugged off the recent market turmoil on Tuesday, insisting that his Toulouse, France-based company is sticking to plans for a new facility in Tianjin next month and to its overall strategy in China.

“We should not mix up problems we can see on the financial markets and the real economy,” he told reporters in Paris, in presenting Airbus’ annual orders and forecast for the year.

Bregier predicted that new U.S. visa policies would boost Chinese air travel, and that Asian middle class demand would continue to grow.

As its economy slows, China is trying to shift its focus away from manufacturing toward consumer spending. That could help increase air travel, but only if the economy does not suffer a sharp drop.

Chicago-based Boeing reached a deal last year to build an assembly plant in China, as the U.S. company tries to match Airbus’s presence in the world’s second-largest economy.

China, too, is trying to get in on the industry. Chinese state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corp. has unveiled the first plane produced by a Chinese initiative to compete in the market for large passenger jetliners, the C919. Bregier downplayed the potential Chinese challenger.

Airbus executives remain upbeat about the overall aviation industry despite signs that aircraft demand is slowing. Industry association IATA recently lowered its long-term air traffic forecast and warned that low oil prices have hurt prospects in key emerging markets such as Russia and Brazil.

Optimism or keeping up a brave face?
 
Grey Havoc said:
http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0002679818

Airbus CEO Fabrice Bregier largely shrugged off the recent market turmoil on Tuesday, insisting that his Toulouse, France-based company is sticking to plans for a new facility in Tianjin next month and to its overall strategy in China.

“We should not mix up problems we can see on the financial markets and the real economy,” he told reporters in Paris, in presenting Airbus’ annual orders and forecast for the year.

Bregier predicted that new U.S. visa policies would boost Chinese air travel, and that Asian middle class demand would continue to grow.

As its economy slows, China is trying to shift its focus away from manufacturing toward consumer spending. That could help increase air travel, but only if the economy does not suffer a sharp drop.

Chicago-based Boeing reached a deal last year to build an assembly plant in China, as the U.S. company tries to match Airbus’s presence in the world’s second-largest economy.

China, too, is trying to get in on the industry. Chinese state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corp. has unveiled the first plane produced by a Chinese initiative to compete in the market for large passenger jetliners, the C919. Bregier downplayed the potential Chinese challenger.

Airbus executives remain upbeat about the overall aviation industry despite signs that aircraft demand is slowing. Industry association IATA recently lowered its long-term air traffic forecast and warned that low oil prices have hurt prospects in key emerging markets such as Russia and Brazil.

Optimism or keeping up a brave face?

Like I said, it is pretty accepted that China's stock market is pretty separate from its real economy.

Restructuring of the economy also makes previous indicators less reliable.
If there is a collapse we will know about it in months or years soon enough. But since China first opened up its economy decades ago there has been people predicting it's imminent collapse with seemingly week argued cases, so for long term China watchers it is almost a cliché.
 
The commercial aircraft backlogs strike me as being absolutely insane. But no one wants to blink first.
 
[quote author=Blitzo ]

Like I said, it is pretty accepted that China's stock market is pretty separate from its real economy.

Restructuring of the economy also makes previous indicators less reliable.
If there is a collapse we will know about it in months or years soon enough. But since China first opened up its economy decades ago there has been people predicting it's imminent collapse with seemingly week argued cases, so for long term China watchers it is almost a cliché.
[/quote]

There are other indicators that show stress in the Chinese economy. The stock market is just one factor. The interesting thing about these hidden factors having an effect on Chinese weapon systems is how 'big ticket' items will be affected. As China attempts to join the so called 'big leagues' of costly weapons platforms, like this aircraft carrier being built in Chinese shipyards, having the money to finish these expensive multi-year programs will become a factor in the completion of these programs.

With unrest in Chinese manufacturing areas people are starting to grumble about guns vs butter issues. The fact is presented that China will soon be forced to choose between its citizens possessing a personal car vs a fleet of J-20s. There is only so much money to go around.

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/04/5-reasons-the-strike-in-china-is-terrifying-to-transnational-capitalism/
 
VH said:
There are other indicators that show stress in the Chinese economy. The stock market is just one factor. The interesting thing about these hidden factors having an effect on Chinese weapon systems is how 'big ticket' items will be affected. As China attempts to join the so called 'big leagues' of costly weapons platforms, like this aircraft carrier being built in Chinese shipyards, having the money to finish these expensive multi-year programs will become a factor in the completion of these programs.

With unrest in Chinese manufacturing areas people are starting to grumble about guns vs butter issues. The fact is presented that China will soon be forced to choose between its citizens possessing a personal car vs a fleet of J-20s. There is only so much money to go around.

http://wire.novaramedia.com/2014/04/5-reasons-the-strike-in-china-is-terrifying-to-transnational-capitalism/

You know something, how about in five years and we'll see how many of those predictions turn out to be true. I'm as eager to see how the cards fall as much as the next person.
 
You know something, how about in five years and we'll see how many of those predictions turn out to be true. I'm as eager to see how the cards fall as much as the next person.

With this long list of problems we may not have to wait 5 years to see how the cards fall for China. To wit: China is aging fast and becoming all male. Also China is a sick nation due to pollution. Air pollution alone is killing over a million Chinese a year. And US and other western corporations are already looking past China as a factor in world manufacturing. Are you familiar with Post China-16? This trend spells bad news for the future of mainland China

Here's the link: http://www.tothetick.com/post-china-16
 
VH said:
You know something, how about in five years and we'll see how many of those predictions turn out to be true. I'm as eager to see how the cards fall as much as the next person.

With this long list of problems we may not have to wait 5 years to see how the cards fall for China. To wit: China is aging fast and becoming all male. Also China is a sick nation due to pollution. Air pollution alone is killing over a million Chinese a year. And US and other western corporations are already looking past China as a factor in world manufacturing. Are you familiar with Post China-16? This trend spells bad news for the future of mainland China

Here's the link: http://www.tothetick.com/post-china-16


If something dramatic will happen soon, then feel free to make a specific prediction for when you think China's economy will have collapsed by. Otherwise, listing various challenges that China faces and making nebulous predictions about an imminent collapse in the near future is the same song we've been hearing for the last decade and a half, where the deadline can constantly be pushed back.
 
The problems facing China are complex. However even you must admit that China is facing a whole host of possible crippling problems that can certainly hobble China in the near term vs long term. I say with this correlation of factors we will see a dramatic shift in Chinese posture before 2020. China is subject to the same structural forces other countries have faced. At the very least China is dependent upon exports to America and the mood of the American people towards them. Americans are growing tired of the Chinese challenging the US in critical arenas. China is now being openly regarded as a potential enemy in any near term conflict. Even the slightest shift in buying habits such as boycotting Chinese products would have a catastrophic effect on the future of China. And we are seeing signs of American citizens urging the boycotting of Chinese goods.
 
VH said:
The problems facing China are complex. However even you must admit that China is facing a whole host of possible crippling problems that can certainly hobble China in the near term vs long term.

Oh I don't dispute that China faces a variety of challenges in its economic, industrial and urbanization development, in fact I quite strongly believe that they do face challenges... however many of these challenges also are not new and have been present in previous years as well.

The question is how well China will be able to deal with those challenges and how likely it is for certain circumstances to emerge.



I say with this correlation of factors we will see a dramatic shift in Chinese posture before 2020. China is subject to the same structural forces other countries have faced.

Okay, well in that case we'll come back in 2020 or before 2020 and I'll expect some solid and indisputable indicators for this "dramatic shift".


At the very least China is dependent upon exports to America and the mood of the American people towards them. Americans are growing tired of the Chinese challenging the US in critical arenas. China is now being openly regarded as a potential enemy in any near term conflict. Even the slightest shift in buying habits such as boycotting Chinese products would have a catastrophic effect on the future of China. And we are seeing signs of American citizens urging the boycotting of Chinese goods.

If you're suggesting that China and the US will sever trade relations, that is probably unlikely unless both sides actually go to war with each other. After all, China's relationship with Japan is about as worse as it's ever been in recent history and there's lots of anger at each other on both sides, yet China is still Japan's largest trading partner.
It would likely require something immense for the US govt to be willing to cut off trade with China in the manner you're describing, and something of equally large magnitude for private US consumers to feel angry enough to boycott all Chinese goods.
 
If you're suggesting that China and the US will sever trade relations, that is probably unlikely unless both sides actually go to war with each other. After all, China's relationship with Japan is about as worse as it's ever been in recent history and there's lots of anger at each other on both sides, yet China is still Japan's largest trading partner.
It would likely require something immense for the US govt to be willing to cut off trade with China in the manner you're describing, and something of equally large magnitude for private US consumers to feel angry enough to boycott all Chinese goods.

All I can say is that anything can happen and if the worse happens between China and America, China will be on the short end of the stick.
 
Strange ... sometimes I get the feeling after reading a few posts here and in the ADIZ tread as if a few are really eager to see a major clash between China and the USA ... as if this is some sort of simple contest "who has the longer one".

However they simply forget that "anything can happen and if the worse happens between China and America, not only China but all will be on the short end of the stick."

Deino
 
Never mind Deino...a brief search of some posters history reveals a lot.
I try and avoid threads such as this on this great site on which, which I must say, the mods do an excellent job of keeping scrupulously clean of dirty personal laundry. It's a pristine part of the internet compared to other sites, which makes the information very high quality. Unique, in fact.

And that's my sucking up done for the day... ;D
 
Deino said:
Strange ... sometimes I get the feeling after reading a few posts here and in the ADIZ tread as if a few are really eager to see a major clash between China and the USA ... as if this is some sort of simple contest "who has the longer one".

I think most would be happy if China acted like the rest of the modern word, and wasn't on a conquest for more territory.
 
Strangely most of this "rest of the world" like to ignore a few certain facts especially historical ones and prefer to see these issues in black & white only ... I do not want to say China si right and all others are wrong, but we all know that the issue in Tibet, the SCS, the ECS are not that simple.

But I prefer to keep politics out of this forum and will end here.
 
Deino said:
Strangely most of this "rest of the world" like to ignore a few certain facts especially historical ones and prefer to see these issues in black & white only ... I do not want to say China si right and all others are wrong, but we all know that the issue in Tibet, the SCS, the ECS are not that simple.

But I prefer to keep politics out of this forum and will end here.

I would prefer if the Chinese did their own research. 60 Minutes just aired this segment. It is not an accident that your J-20 looks the way that it does

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-great-brain-robbery/

The Great Brain Robbery
JANUARY 17, 2016, 8:05 PM|Economic espionage sponsored by the Chinese government is costing U.S. corporations hundreds of billions of dollars and more than two million jobs. Lesley Stahl reports.
 
And You really think that even if they hacked a bit in LM's PC, it would be that easy to "Copy" a F-22 to make a J-20 or a F-35 to remodel the J-31 ?

By the way ... who on earth is the biggest collector - even within close allies - of government, private, or business data ... ??
And that all in the name of "national security" ! And then being annoyed if others play the same game and even make a point !?

Again Your simple beloved black and white view.

I end here.

Deino
 
Deino said:
And You really think that even if they hacked a bit in LM's PC, it would be that easy to "Copy" a F-22 to make a J-20 or a F-35 to remodel the J-31 ?

By the way ... who on earth is the biggest collector - even within close allies - of government, private, or business data ... ??
And that all in the name of "national security" ! And then being annoyed if others play the same game and even make a point !?

Again Your simple beloved black and white view.

I end here.

Deino

My suggestion is that you look at the 60 Minutes report and draw your own conclusions. The report is quite detailed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-great-brain-robbery/
 
Twice now the same post/link...

Is this really the type of forum for people to use as a platform to air all their particular hates pertaining to a single nation?
There are hundreds of forums out there far more suitable for those types of personal campaigns.
This is an international forum that welcomes information on projects from around the globe from citizens from many countries.
Some of those other forums show exactly how how bad the noise-to-information ratio becomes when individual personal "pet hate" campaigns are allowed. They become worthless.
 
VH, your posts on this forum seems to be limited to disparaging posts regarding China.

Shouldn't this thread be in the Bar sub forum?
 
RadicalDisconnect said:
VH, your posts on this forum seems to be limited to disparaging posts regarding China.

Shouldn't this thread be in the Bar sub forum?

Take up your complaint with the Washington Post and 60 Minutes. Apparently these media sources think that the subject is worthy of discussion even if you don't.
 
Getting back on topic, what's yer take on this development: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-19/china-said-to-finalize-plans-for-22-billion-plane-engine-giant
 
Hard to say since China has invested big money before in jet engine development. Wonder what is different about this project? The devil is in the details
 

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