Caproni Ca.183
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Blacklynx09
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Re: Ca- 183bis
I greatly appreciate it and will be looking forward to any information.
I greatly appreciate it and will be looking forward to any information.
Blacklynx09
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Re: Ca- 183bis
What I am most interested in is what skybolt refers to as the 'Caproni Technical Descriptions Brochure'.
What I am most interested in is what skybolt refers to as the 'Caproni Technical Descriptions Brochure'.
Blacklynx09
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Re: Ca- 183bis
I thank you for your work Hesham.
I thank you for your work Hesham.
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Re: Ca- 183bis
Is there a realistic chance of this? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be very glad if this long anticipated book finally came out!
Skybolt said:
Is there a realistic chance of this? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be very glad if this long anticipated book finally came out!
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Re: Ca- 183bis
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Most motor-cannons operate completely outside the engine, ergo no need to worry about compatibility with the crankshaft. They will not fire through the middle of the crankshaft. Often they nestle into the V between cylinder banks, completely outside the oil-filled crank-case..
Instead, most motor-cannons only fire through the propeller speed reduction unit. Since the PSRU offsets the propeller from the crankshaft, the cannon barrel has no need to penetrate the crankcase. . Since the contra-rotating propellers needed a completely new PSRU it would be easy to specify a 30 or 37mm cannon - at the start of the project - and design the new PSRU around the larger cannon.
Skybolt said:
————————————————————————————-
Most motor-cannons operate completely outside the engine, ergo no need to worry about compatibility with the crankshaft. They will not fire through the middle of the crankshaft. Often they nestle into the V between cylinder banks, completely outside the oil-filled crank-case..
Instead, most motor-cannons only fire through the propeller speed reduction unit. Since the PSRU offsets the propeller from the crankshaft, the cannon barrel has no need to penetrate the crankcase. . Since the contra-rotating propellers needed a completely new PSRU it would be easy to specify a 30 or 37mm cannon - at the start of the project - and design the new PSRU around the larger cannon.
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Stuka_Hunter
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Greetings
In short: this plane is a motorjet fighter serived from an earlier Campini N.1. I knew 183 existed for some time, but I only recently discovered that it was, as some sources claim, 80% finished at some point in late 1944 or early 1945. The prototype was then destroyed in allied bombardment and was forgotten.
I searched several sites for pictures or any evidence the partial prototype existed, but the only evidence I managed to find is a blueprint of some sort.
https://forum.warthunder.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/post-578478-0-30900000-1464549951.jpg.a24e5adc5126ac94ec5d50b6cebb5ed1.jpg
Question: do pictures of the prototype exist?
Kind regards
Topics merged
In short: this plane is a motorjet fighter serived from an earlier Campini N.1. I knew 183 existed for some time, but I only recently discovered that it was, as some sources claim, 80% finished at some point in late 1944 or early 1945. The prototype was then destroyed in allied bombardment and was forgotten.
I searched several sites for pictures or any evidence the partial prototype existed, but the only evidence I managed to find is a blueprint of some sort.
https://forum.warthunder.com/uploads/monthly_2017_05/post-578478-0-30900000-1464549951.jpg.a24e5adc5126ac94ec5d50b6cebb5ed1.jpg
Question: do pictures of the prototype exist?
Kind regards
Topics merged
blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
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I recommend this drawing.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/ca-183-bis-jpg.548044/
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/ca-183-bis-jpg.548044/
blackkite
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blackkite
Don't laugh, don't cry, don't even curse, but.....
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1. Press d’aria dinamico (Dynamic air press)
2. Compressore centrifugo ausiltario a due stad (two-stage auxiliary centrifugal compressor)
3. Refrigeratore dell’ aria di alimontazione (Power supply air chiller)
4. Compressore centrifugo ausiltario (auxiliary centrifugal compressor)
5. Compressore del motore DB-605A (DB-605A engine compressor)
6. Motore FIAT DB-605A azionante eliche tripala controrotanti (FIAT DB-605A engine counter-rotating three-blade propellers )
7. Motore ausiltario FIAT A.30 (auxiliary engine FIAT A.30)
8. Compressore assiail (ventola intubala) (axial compressor (Duct fan))
9. Radiatore dell acqua (water radiator)
10. Iniettore combustibile (fuel injector)
11. Bruciatore (burner)
Schema Propulsivo del Ca.183 bis (Propulsive scheme of the Ca.183 bis)
2. Compressore centrifugo ausiltario a due stad (two-stage auxiliary centrifugal compressor)
3. Refrigeratore dell’ aria di alimontazione (Power supply air chiller)
4. Compressore centrifugo ausiltario (auxiliary centrifugal compressor)
5. Compressore del motore DB-605A (DB-605A engine compressor)
6. Motore FIAT DB-605A azionante eliche tripala controrotanti (FIAT DB-605A engine counter-rotating three-blade propellers )
7. Motore ausiltario FIAT A.30 (auxiliary engine FIAT A.30)
8. Compressore assiail (ventola intubala) (axial compressor (Duct fan))
9. Radiatore dell acqua (water radiator)
10. Iniettore combustibile (fuel injector)
11. Bruciatore (burner)
Schema Propulsivo del Ca.183 bis (Propulsive scheme of the Ca.183 bis)
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blackkite
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FIAT A,30 engine.
powerplants.warbirdsresourcegroup.org
FIAT A.30
The Fiat A.30 R.A. was an Italian water-cooled aircraft engine from the 1920s, built in large numbers and serving with several air forces up to the beginning of World War II.
Manufacturer: Alfa Romeo
Developed: 1920s
Type: Water cooled 60° upright V-12
Bore: 135 mm (5.31 in)
Stroke: 140 mm 5.51 in)
Displacement: 24.0 L ( 1,464 cu in)
Length: 1.751 m (68.94 in)
Width: 653 mm (25.71 in)
Height: 935 mm (36.82 in)
Dry weight: 480 kg (1,060 lb)
Performance:
Power Output:
– Normal: 600 hp at 2,000 rpm at sea level
– Take-Off: 800 hp at 2,900 rpm.
Compression ratio: 8:1
Fuel consumption: 0.322 kg/kW/h (0.529 lb/hp/h)
Powerplant Resource Center - A Warbirds Resource Group Site
The Powerplant Resource Center is a database of aircraft engines used during World War II.
FIAT A.30
The Fiat A.30 R.A. was an Italian water-cooled aircraft engine from the 1920s, built in large numbers and serving with several air forces up to the beginning of World War II.
Manufacturer: Alfa Romeo
Developed: 1920s
Type: Water cooled 60° upright V-12
Bore: 135 mm (5.31 in)
Stroke: 140 mm 5.51 in)
Displacement: 24.0 L ( 1,464 cu in)
Length: 1.751 m (68.94 in)
Width: 653 mm (25.71 in)
Height: 935 mm (36.82 in)
Dry weight: 480 kg (1,060 lb)
Performance:
Power Output:
– Normal: 600 hp at 2,000 rpm at sea level
– Take-Off: 800 hp at 2,900 rpm.
Compression ratio: 8:1
Fuel consumption: 0.322 kg/kW/h (0.529 lb/hp/h)
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This was also my guess, it makes totally sens to place the water coolers behind the compressor, so that the cooling heat can be used for generating thrust. The intercoolers are placed in front of the compressor where the temperature of the air flow is cooler.
A couple of years ago I did some calculations and came to the conclusion, that a "mild thermojet" with low compression ratio and heat only from the cooling/charging+ exhaust system can be an efficient approach for an high altitude plane. Of course, most of the power would come from the propellers.
I guess this is quite exact.
The propulsive sheam in #59 indicates, that there might have been a differential which drives the superchagers with increasingly speed with increased torque. Such drives have been used in some truck engines long time ago, it would make sense because it enables a variable super charger drive.
The propulsive sheam in #59 indicates, that there might have been a differential which drives the superchagers with increasingly speed with increased torque. Such drives have been used in some truck engines long time ago, it would make sense because it enables a variable super charger drive.
blackkite
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certainly experienced with the project of the high-altitude fighter Ca,183 BIS. Designed by Caproni technicians, it was an all-metal monoplane aircraft with a retractable carriage and fixed tail wheel.
13.53 m long, 4.10m high, it is equipped with a low wing with a large aspect ratio with a trapezoidal shape and rounded ends.
The wing was clearly oversized so that a wingspan of 21m was combined with a wing area of 42.50sqm.
Fuel tanks were housed in the capable wings. The aircraft was designed as a single-seat daytime aircraft and was armed with five 20mm cannons four of which are in the wings, and one in the engine firing through the propeller shaft.
The wing guns were equipped with 800 rounds, while the cannon-engine had 150 rounds in the magazine.
The fuselage of the Ca.183 BIS was intended to be built in two sectors.
The front one contained the Daimler Benz 605 engine, pressurized driver's cab, a fuel tank and the FIAT A 30 auxiliary engine.
At the rear of the fuselage was the jet engine.
The Ca.183 was also equipped with two compressors, the first to restore the supply pressure up to 15000m, while the second to restore the FIAT engine feeding pressure from 3000 to 5800m.
The fighter, moreover, was equipped with a double burner duct or perhaps, better to say, a single burner composed of two concentric ducts, one internal and one external.
The outer tube served as a ignition and fuel injection system was convinced.
The Caproni 183 bis, like the RE 2005R, would also have used the burner system only during combat, in order to limit consumption.
The propulsion system, without aftercombustion, would have allowed the maximum speed of 740km/h at 16000m, 660km/h at 11300m, 460km/h at 2100m and 420km/h at zero altitude.
With the afterburner running, however, the expected top speed was 780/820km/h at 16000m.
The aircraft, which had a practical ceiling of 17600m and a theoretical 10000m in 10'20" and at 15000m in 34'34".
The autonomy was remarkable, for an aircraft that required large quantities of fuel.
The latter was expected to take 2000km. Unfortunately, even the Ca.183 bis remained only an idea sketched on paper.
13.53 m long, 4.10m high, it is equipped with a low wing with a large aspect ratio with a trapezoidal shape and rounded ends.
The wing was clearly oversized so that a wingspan of 21m was combined with a wing area of 42.50sqm.
Fuel tanks were housed in the capable wings. The aircraft was designed as a single-seat daytime aircraft and was armed with five 20mm cannons four of which are in the wings, and one in the engine firing through the propeller shaft.
The wing guns were equipped with 800 rounds, while the cannon-engine had 150 rounds in the magazine.
The fuselage of the Ca.183 BIS was intended to be built in two sectors.
The front one contained the Daimler Benz 605 engine, pressurized driver's cab, a fuel tank and the FIAT A 30 auxiliary engine.
At the rear of the fuselage was the jet engine.
The Ca.183 was also equipped with two compressors, the first to restore the supply pressure up to 15000m, while the second to restore the FIAT engine feeding pressure from 3000 to 5800m.
The fighter, moreover, was equipped with a double burner duct or perhaps, better to say, a single burner composed of two concentric ducts, one internal and one external.
The outer tube served as a ignition and fuel injection system was convinced.
The Caproni 183 bis, like the RE 2005R, would also have used the burner system only during combat, in order to limit consumption.
The propulsion system, without aftercombustion, would have allowed the maximum speed of 740km/h at 16000m, 660km/h at 11300m, 460km/h at 2100m and 420km/h at zero altitude.
With the afterburner running, however, the expected top speed was 780/820km/h at 16000m.
The aircraft, which had a practical ceiling of 17600m and a theoretical 10000m in 10'20" and at 15000m in 34'34".
The autonomy was remarkable, for an aircraft that required large quantities of fuel.
The latter was expected to take 2000km. Unfortunately, even the Ca.183 bis remained only an idea sketched on paper.
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I think what you labeled as "fuel injector" is actually the controls for the tail. Look at the side view just behind the upper part of the radiator.
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Temistocle
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Who is the seller of these documents? Museo Caproni?
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I have no idea! But you can take a look at the site, there is a link in the topic dedicated to that sale (search for "Caproni auction" in the forum and you should find it).
[EDITED] Indeed, we don't know what the regular Ca.183 may have looked like.
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Aubi
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But in the documents the machine is labeled as Ca 183 bis.
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Oh yes, you're right! I made a mistake. I'll correct my comment right away.
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