Canada: Alternative military procurements to 2060...

[Avimimus]

This is a thread to speculate on the feasibility of Canada's military forces for various tasks, and possible configurations of it.
You have a budget - go design a Canadian Armed forces!

Some possible requirements:
- Support for larger joint operations with allies
- Capacity independent involvement in low-intensity conflicts
- Effective response to civil and environmental crises
- Effective control over airspace, coastlines, even in the high arctic
- Ability to secure borders in the case of a second American Civil War
- Anything else you can use to justify your budget...

 

[bmdefiant]

Considering the size and length of borders that Canada has some sort of long duration UAV would seem to be of use for surveillance etc purposes...then in wartime stick a few weapons on for good use..

 

[bobbymike]

As a Canadian and if I had dictatorial powers I would;

1) Buy Virginia class SSN's
2) Burkes or CV(X) if built
3) F-22s
4) Convert the army to all Special Operations with the rest just support units for this group.
5) C-17s to transport them, Osprey's for in theater

Basically Starship Troopers

 

[Grey Havoc]

2) Burkes or CV(X) if built

Might I suggest, as an alternative or supplement, a design based off the CGBL?

 

[riggerrob]

In the immediate aftermath of World War 2, a bankrupt Britain fobs off administration of her Western Hemisphere Colonies: Bahamas, Belize, Bermuda, British Guyana, Cacos, Jamaica, Trinidad, Tobago, Turks, Jamaica, etc. on Canadians.
The Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force are tasked with shuttling diplomats and other gov't officials from the Great White North to sunny islands in the Carribbean. Canadian tourists soon follow.
For some silly reason, the US insists on return of all Lend-Lease airplanes after the war, so the RCAF turns to British manufacturers, but also encourages Canadian factories to start producing airplanes with the range to fly non-stop from Montreal to the Bahamas. They often refuel in Yarmouth, Nova Scotia or Bermuda. On the west coast, RCAF transports often refuel in Tijuana or Baja, Mexico.
Since American diplomats complain (hand-wavium) about Canadian military airplanes over-flying their territory, RCAF planes need to fly out over the Atlantic or Pacific ocean to begin their flights south. This requires long-range, 4-engined transports. So the RCAF initially turns to British manufacturers, but soon encourages.
Canadian Car and Foundry doubles down on making stainless steel Conestogas for RCAF short and medium-range transports.
Victory Aircraft build a few dozen more Avro Yorks based upon war-surplus Lancaster wings and engines.
Avro Canada starts building Jetliners in earnest.
For some silly reason, the US State Department prevents Boeing, Consolidated, Douglas, Lockheed, Martin, Sikorsky, etc. from selling manufacturing licenses to Canadians. But large American radial engines are available through surplus channels???????????

 

[GK Dundas]

Mulroney doesn't cancel purchase of 300 M 1A1 HAs Abrams.

 

[Elan Vital]

Mulroney doesn't cancel purchase of 300 M 1A1 HAs Abrams.

Wait there was a purchase? When?

 

[Archibald]

In 1956 the future Arrow Sparrow II missile to be build by Canadair (instead of the canned Velvet glove) , led them to Douglas and their F5D Skylancer, which was to carry that very missile.

While the Sparrow II is doomed, Canadair is intrigued by the Skylancer itself, which looks like a miniature Arrow. When the USN and Douglas throw the Skylancer under a bus, Canadair steps in and ask for a licence or the blueprints or the prototypes.

Douglas dumps them the whole package, and now Canadair proposes their Skylancier (lancier is french word for lancer, because Quebec) as a low end to the Arrow. Technology transfers happens between Avro and Canadair: notably the Arrow analog FBW system, it is adapted to the Skylancier. Turning it from a Mirage III into a Mirage 2000 twenty years ahead of Dassault.

Overall, the Canadian government uses the Skylancier as a way to "deflate" the Arrow without the disastrous OTL cancellation. Only 66 Arrows are produced, and its technology is dumped on Skylanciers build in large numbers: OTL CF-104 + CF-5 orders from the 1960's, (440 airframes) and equipment of the 1st air division in Europe.

 

[Elan Vital]

In the event NATO more correctly assessed the actual threat to Norway (as in, low) and Trudeauist cuts and reforms didn't happen, a potential Canadian force structure focused on CENTAG operations:

2-3 full CMBGs earmarked for Central Europe instead of 1 for most of the post-68 period (including 2 in Canada)

250-300 M60A1 or Leopard 1 ordered in 1968, replaced by Leopard 2s or M1s in the 80s depending on the importance of commonality with the US forces

AIFV buy in the late 70s/80s to provide an IFV capability with the APC/support versions partially replacing M113

Lynx rearmed with a 25mm

Early buy of Stinger/RBS-70

Gepard, Chaparral or Roland selected as point defense for mobile units

 

[GK Dundas]

Mulroney doesn't cancel purchase of 300 M 1A1 HAs Abrams.

Wait there was a purchase? When?

As I recall just prior to signing a deal to purchase some 300 +/- tanks . It was decided to cancel instead to "save money And ease the burden on the taxpayer ."
I think" the cold war is over "was mentioned as well.
I often wonder how much money we ended up spending on the various rebuilds of the Leopard C-1's? Including the two"emergency" rebuilds.
Late edit early to mid eighties not all that long after the white paper on defence was released.

Even later edit just realised that the white paper came out in '87.

 

[riggerrob]

rearmed with a 25mm

Early buy of Stinger/RBS-70

Gepard, Chaparral or Roland selected as point defense for mobile units

What if we look at this from an industrial perspective?
What if Canadian manufacturers focus on license-building designs by their parent corporations?
Canadian branch plants also sub-contract to build sub-components to "keep the pump primed."

Boeing of Canada (Vancouver) builds a wide variety of airliner components and even sells a few jet airliners to Air Canada.

While aligned with General Dynamics, Canadair (Montreal) builds B-57 Canberras and F-16s for the RCAF. They also build F1-06 interceptors, 440 prop twins and 880 jet airliners.

Canadian Car and Foundry continues building Grummans under license: F4 Martlets, F6 Hellcats, TBM Avengers, S2 Trackers, Tigers, Gulfstream biz jets, etc.

deHavilland of Canada builds more Vampire jet fighters, then Venoms, Sea Vixens. Meanwhile parallel production lines produce Rapide, Dove, Heron and Trident airliners most powered by deHavilland jet engines.

Fairchild of Canada starts by building FC and PT-19 single-engined airplanes, but post-war builds batches of C-119 flying Boxcars and C-123 Providers for the RCAF. They also sell hundreds of FH-1100 helicopters to the Royal Canadian Artillery. Canadian commuter airlines buy dozens of Fokker/Fairchild F-27 twin turboprops.

Please note the shift away from British parent corporations to American parent corporations as happened in the original time-line.

 

[Apophenia]

Interesting. Your introduction pretty much describes what actually happened RW ... at least on the surface. Like Victory Aircraft (not mentioned), Canadair was a product of C.D. Howe's firesale mentality towards all Canadian industries built up during WW2. So, the post-WW2 Canadian aircraft industry was a product of the policies of 'Minister-of-Everything' Howe.

As a result, former Crown Corporations like Victory or Canadair could be picked up for a song but their Hawker-Siddeley or Electric Boat/GD top management knew they could rely upon GoC favouritism as well as subsidies and bailouts. As a result, the GoC found itself needing to pay extra for licensed-production or for local parts work to avoid layoffs. Hardly a recipe for industrial success let alone innovation.

Only one Canadian-designed aircraft was produced in any numbers during the war - the Noorduyn Norseman. But C.D. Howe wasn't interested in investing in private firms like Noorduyn Aviation Ltd. When the GoC bought the Cartierville airport to facilitate Canadair expansion, the writing was on the wall. So, Dutch-American designer, RBC Noorduyn, moved back to the US. [1] Noorduyn's rights to the Norseman and licence for the North American Harvard went to Canadian Car and Foundry - quite a coup for one of the worse-managed aircraft makers in Canada.

Canadian Car and Foundry, it should be mentioned, had its major plant in Fort William, ON (now part of Thunder Bay). That plant had been funded by the taxpayers of Fort William during WWI but, from 1922 to 1936, the millionaire owners of CCF simply refused to honour their contract obligations to this small town. Once CCF management caught 'aviation fever', they were happy to resume tax-subsidized operations at Fort William. Oh, did I mention this? That CCF plant fell within the federal riding of The Honourable C.D. Howe, MP.

Did C.D. Howe favour an inept CCF? Maybe. But the real point is that neither C.D. Howe nor anyone else in Cabinet was equipped or qualified to oversee modern industry (and that was true across all major political parties). Neither were the Lord Beaverbrook-connected Maritime railway-baron scions who ran firms like CCF. My conclusion here is that neither industry nor politics were the key issue ... except as part of larger, overall Canadian cultural baggage. That CB has to be tackled before any convincing AH can be 'imagineered'.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of ramble. Anyhoo, the branch-plant industry approach has surely been proven a failure ... if our collective goal was a self-supporting, vibrant industrial base. In aviation, Canada has tried variations on the branch-plant theme for over a century. Probably past time to knock that concept on the head.

______________________________________________

[1] I'm not sure about co-designer Walter C. Clayton. He had been chief engineer at Pitcairn Aircraft Inc. but what happened to him after helping to set up Noorduyn Aircraft? Anyone know?

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

Cold War Air Power Choices For The RCAF: Paul Hellyer and the Selection of the CF5 Freedom Fighter - Canadian Military Journal

Cold War Air Power Choices For The RCAF: Paul Hellyer and the Selection of the CF5 Freedom Fighter

www.journal.forces.gc.ca