British Spec. 26/49,Rapide Replacement

[hesham]

Hi,

in British Specification 26/49 for Rapide replacement or Brabazon VA,the main tenders
were; Blackburn B-84,Folland Fo.134,Westland PJD.203 and English Electric design,here
is a three of competitors from Putnam books,if someone had a drawing to Fo.134,that
will be nice.

 

[Schneiderman]

It was a joint project with Saro and there is a 3-view in From Sea to Air which I will try and scan later

 

[hesham]

It was a joint project with Saro and there is a 3-view in From Sea to Air which I will try and scan later

OK and many great thanks,

also Avro-715 and Shorts were from the contenders.

 

[Schneiderman]

Here is the Folland Fo134/Saro P.132 taken from Tagg and Wheeler, From Sea to Air. I have no idea why it was developed as a joint project or which company was responsible for initiating the work.

 

[Schneiderman]

The English Electric design seems to be aimed at a completely different spec., despite what the caption says. It is twin engine, 6-8 seat while all the others are four engine, 11-16 seat

 

[hesham]

The English Electric design seems to be aimed at a completely different spec., despite what the caption says. It is twin engine, 6-8 seat while all the others are four engine, 11-16 seat

Many thanks my dear Schneiderman,and maybe that's right for EE company.

Again the main tenders for this Spec. were;

Avro-715,Blackburn B-84,Folland Fo.134/SARO P.132,Miles Surrey 1,ML White Waltham Factory,Percival P-64,Scottish Aviation,Shorts and Westland PJD.203.

I have Shorts and Percival drawings,who can provide us by the others ?.

 

[hesham]

ML White Waltham Factory,

I think ML is abbreviation to Malcolm Ltd.,right ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

I believe it is from the initials of Sir Noel Mobbs (or maybe Eric Mobbs), managing director, and Marcel Lobelle, chief designer and director, of M.L. Aviation (previously R Malcolm Co ). White Waltham is the place where their main office was located.

 

[hesham]

I believe it is from the initials of Sir Noel Mobbs (or maybe Eric Mobbs), managing director, and Marcel Lobelle, chief designer and director, of M.L. Aviation (previously R Malcolm Co ). White Waltham is the place where their main office was located.

Thanks,

and for twin engined tenders,there was also Percival P-64 a high-wing twin engined
aircraft Project.

 

[robunos]

Blackburn B-84 three view, source 'From Spitfire to Eurofighter', page 41 . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Robunos,a great book of course;

and here is a small Info about Miles Surrey 1.

 

[Schneiderman]

and here is a small Info about Miles Surrey 1.

Apparently it was similar in layout to the Aerovan and Merchantman

 

[hesham]

and here is a small Info about Miles Surrey 1.

Apparently it was similar in layout to the Aerovan and Merchantman

I think so,

and for Shorts,its proposal was a four engined low-wing monoplane Project,looks like
the Blackburn B-48,but the rear wing is straight (not like a V-wing).

 

[robunos]

and for twin engined tenders,there was also Percival P-64 a high-wing twin engined
aircraft Project.

Regarding the P.64, 'Stuck on the Drawing Board' mentions that the project existed, along with the P.65, of which there is a three view, and John Silvester's 'Percival' book makes no mention at all . . .
cheers,
Robin.

 

[hesham]

Thank you Robunos,

and I have that book,the unknown drawings is ML & Scottish Aviation proposals ?.

 

[ursrius]

Regarding the P.64, 'Stuck on the Drawing Board' mentions only that the project existed, and John Silvester's 'Percival' book makes no mention at all. However, looking at the description, and the project number, I think it would be a safe bet to assume that the P.46 looked a lot like, and was developed into, the P.48 Merganser . . .

Are we getting our P.64 and P.46's mixed up?
P.64 was a simplified Prince powered by two Leonides radials, with fixed, strut braced undercarriage.
The P.46 was the Youngman-Baynes High Lift Monoplane, a much modified Proctor IV.

See 'On The Wings of A Gull', by David W. Gearing (Air Britain)

 

[robunos]

Ooopsie! . . . :-[
Yes, I did mean the P.64 and P.65 . . . Once again I've been struck with the curse of 'Stuck on the Drawing Board'! It's a great book, but it's in two parts; the narrative chapters at the front, and the project lists at the back. And the second part is not referenced in the first . . . so, having looked in the front part, and seeing only a brief mention, I never bothered to look in the rear part. Had I done so, I would have found, on page 232, the three-view drawing of the P.65 below. It was also late, so when I mixed up P.64 and P.46, instead of noticing, I ran with it . . .
I have edited my earlier post to remove the erroneous information.
While I was looking again at 'Stuck on the Drawing Board', on page 244, I found a cutaway drawing of the Shorts 26/49 design . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Hood]

I don't normally post these but came across this from another source.
A marketing brochure for the Percival Merganser which seems to include some of the earlier studies and makes use of some of the designers' materials.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PERCIVAL-MERGANSER-MANUFACTURERS-SALES-BROCHURE-WITH-SEAT-PLANS-/192278207830?hash=item2cc4ac9d56:g:iM4AAOSwVRNZhmK2

 

[hesham]

Great find my dear Hood.

 

[hesham]

In Aeroplane monthly 12/2020,

there is a drawing and all characters for Scottish Aviation SAL-50 Concord,which was based on Consolidated Liberator.

From, Stuck on The Drawing Board

 

[Foo Fighter]

No picture?

 

[riggerrob]

Where do the deHavilland Dove (544), Heron (149)and Drover (20) fit into the competition to replace Rapide?
I have only flown in the Saunders ST-27 conversion of a Heron, but rather enjoyed the short flight from Montreal to Ottawa. The P&WC PT6A engines were quieter than pistons.

 

[Schneiderman]

No picture?

Scottish Aviation design projects ... | Secret Projects Forum

 

[Foo Fighter]

Thank you. Sir. Found it.

 

[lol90oo]

Thank you Robunos,

and I have that book,the unknown drawings is ML & Scottish Aviation proposals ?.

hi hesham how are you today ? i wanted to ask if you ve got some ML aviation drawings and if you could show them to me pls?

 

[hesham]

I am find,thank you dear Lol90,and here is the ML & Scottish aviation proposal
drawing.

 

[lol90oo]

I am find,thank you dear Lol90,and her is the ML & Scottish aviation proposal
drawing.

thx but i have a question wich one is the ML aviation one?

 

[Schneiderman]

I am find,thank you dear Lol90,and her is the ML & Scottish aviation proposal
drawing.

thx but i have a question wich one is the ML aviation one?

Neither, both model and GA drawing are of the Scottish Aviation Concord

 

[hesham]

Neither, both model and GA drawing are of the Scottish Aviation Concord

Looks like this one.

 

[lol90oo]

Neither, both model and GA drawing are of the Scottish Aviation Concord

Looks like this one.

so this one is the ML aviation one?

 

[hesham]

so this one is the ML aviation one?

No,it's Scottish Aviation,the drawing for ML is not known.

 

[lol90oo]

so this one is the ML aviation one?

No,it's Scottish Aviation,the drawing for ML is not known.

ima try to find it later iam doing some research on ML aviation

 

[Schneiderman]

Neither, both model and GA drawing are of the Scottish Aviation Concord

Looks like this one.

Yes, from a Scottish Aviation brochure in 1944

 

[Schneiderman]

Also

 

[alertken]

Put yourself in the shoes of the (quite junior) first filterer of Bids. He passes his appraisal to funder-politicians, but only after deleting the nonsenses. Here: ML (oddjob bits and bobs, including dodgy ejection seats), SAL (repair cobbler, not designer), Miles (in 1949...unproven team, post-scandalous liquidation), EE (civilly virginal). Picture yourself pondering what to do with "these Whittles", 1942. You cannot put production to Power Jets who have no factory. Or (much later) what to do with combat UAVs when General Atomics, unproven newbie, came up with novelty: who he? Best to lift their ideas, paying if we must, and give them to a proper firm. US could have put reaction thrust into a proven reciprocist, not to supercharger newbie GE.

That is why armchair critics should be ignored (Martin Baker MB- competitors to Hawker/Supermarine; Miles blended-body Transatlantic, or bullet-supersonics). Risk. So-called dumb officials simply tried to measure risk: reward. We now know GE and GA were gamechangers.

Modest response to this 1949, and to BEAC's 1953 Rapide Replacement tenders were in part because they were unfunded trawls. BEAC had secured procurement independence 10/1/49, freed from MoS knowing what was best for them. This Spec was moribund. BEAC would fly Rapides to 1/5/64, Dakotas to 19/5/62. It also duplicated Brabazon Type 5A (HPR Marathon, 25 on order by MoS for BEAC)/5B (DH Dove, soon Heron, which BEAC would buy). It was BEAC's 2/52 rejection of Marathon that would trigger the 1953 trawl...to no purpose.