Bell, Martin and Boeing "Dyna-Soar"-related designations

[Bomiwriter]

Hullo;
Does anybody possess a reasonable listing of Bell Aircraft Model numbers (400 series and anything listing Dyna Soar orbital weapons system or bomber)? Stymied now concerning the Bell, Martin-Bell Orbital Bomber studies for an article on Orbital Bomber propoals nearly completed. My lists are but fragments and since the "Landfill Option," was obviously exercised aand supposedly Lockheed-Martin, when they occupied the Bell plant at Nigara Falls during the mid 2000s. I am told by a woman who wished to remain unnamed, that L.M. picked clean what Bell Docs they wanted and the remaining pile designated for landfill. This was saved by folks who have it at the Niagara Aerospace Museum...a.k.a. Ira Ross Aviation Museum. Although I have the 7000 series devoted to space projects, the Brass Bell Model number is missing, although I have a B.B. Report with typed front cover saying Model D-143...reasonable since Brass Bell Reports were D-143. The list I have indicates a twin-boom fighter project as D-143 and this(?) in 1955-1958 period of this study. Don't seem right.
No listing is found for the proposed orbital bomber model designations...an expanded version of the April, 1959 standard 9,000-10,000 pound glider that also has no reference as a Model number.
Does anybody have something on any Bell designed and Martin inputs for the Orbital Bomber? I do have something...Model 464 for Bell's Dyna Soar but which version...there were at least 3-4 version between March, 1958 and April, 1959. Bell Museum in Niagara Falls knows not...anybody else? If not, it will be by guess and by golly but will wrap up the article as is then. Thanks and all have a good day. Bomiwriter.

 

[Stargazer]

I think there is a risk of confusion when you say "400 series" and call them "Models". The "Model 400" series consists of helicopters. What you're after is the "D*** for design" numbers. To the best of my knowledge (but of course I'm far from knowing it all) there was only the D400/A in that number range, a development of the X-14. All the space-related projects I know of are in the four-digit D7000 and D8000 range. Have you browse through all seven pages of this thread yet?

 

[Bomiwriter]

Hi and no, I was blocked out so unable to enter the listings for Bell. I mention the Model 464 not as a helicopter but as a supposed designation for one of the Bell designed Bell, Martin-Bell Dyna Soar submissions for 1958. I have some detailed Reports, but all refer to the Dyna Soar being described as "airplane," not by model number, while some Boeing Docs give a Model number.
I have only fragmented lists and the helicopter list but still one seems I.D's as Model 464 which may be in total error.
Thanks
Bomiwriter.

 

[Bomiwriter]

Ok...to correct my language, I usually apply the term Model to a company project, so this may confuse you and others.
The 464 designation had nothing but the 464 number so it may very well be in error. Also, Bell did the glider designs while Martin perhaps added or changed items in the design proposals since they were a team called BoMI Division within the Martin Space Flight Division competing for Dyna Soar, and perhaps there was some cross-confusion between the two on this matter.
Ah well, all the more to confuse us researcher-writers...still the article with our without the designations will be insightful to say the least, with great illustrations. Nobody else has touched the subject to my knowledge a it is somewhat exotic as well, what with the drawings-plans to back up the text...I'm merely trying to as accurate as possible. Its for Quest...if my Military Editor likes it.
BW.

 

[Stargazer]

Ok...to correct my language, I usually apply the term Model to a company project, so this may confuse you and others.
The 464 designation had nothing but the 464 number so it may very well be in error. Also, Bell did the glider designs while Martin perhaps added or changed items in the design proposals since they were a team called BoMI Division within the Martin Space Flight Division competing for Dyna Soar, and perhaps there was some cross-confusion between the two on this matter.
Ah well, all the more to confuse us researcher-writers...still the article with our without the designations will be insightful to say the least, with great illustrations. Nobody else has touched the subject to my knowledge a it is somewhat exotic as well, what with the drawings-plans to back up the text...I'm merely trying to as accurate as possible. Its for Quest...if my Military Editor likes it.
BW.

Now I know what the confusion came from. "464" was not a Bell designation, it was the USAF's weapon system designation. "MX-2145" and "MX-2276" were related to BoMi, while "SS-464L" and "RS-620A" were related the Dyna-Soar program.
You should contact forum member Orionblamblam, he's certainly got loads of data that you might be interested about.

 

[Bomiwriter]

Hi and thank you for your efforts...I am very much aware of these projects having collected such material for the pat 12 years. I too, figured Bell designated one of the DS gliders 464 because of that USAF Project number RS-464L. but therein lies the confusion as to why such a strange number is applied.
I just went through a foot high pile of Bell, Martn-Bell Dyna Soar Docs and found the reference; my dumb mistake...it is the Martin Model 464 "experimental prototype" airplane. It brings up yet more questions...Bell designed the gliders, but Martin is also deeply involved during the DS competition, working with Bell engineers-it would appear that Martin engineers were adding their input to the designs, but still, Bell did the glider designs yet Martin includes their own model designation, and the only one I've seen in any of these reports on all of the DS gliders. Oh well, with Hans Multhopp being the technical director of the Martin effort had a heavy hand in working over the Bell designs, since he was designing Martin lifting body and other spacecraft too.
That is it and thank you for the efforts-now to find a list of Martin 400 series numbers and see if they applied Martin numbers to the other DS gliders...that is the question now.
Thanks and have a good day.

 

[Stargazer]

I am still convinced that the use of the words "Model 464" in some Bell documents doesn't mean much. There are numerous examples in U.S. aviation history when the blueprints use the customer's project number and call it a "model" (we had one such example only yesterday on this forum with the Aeromarine "Model XII" which was just a proposal to the Army's "Type XII" tender and not a model number at all).

The number "464" being generic for all Dyna-Soar-related studies, projects, proposals from Bell, Martin and Boeing, it is bound to appear on many related documents.

 

[Bomiwriter]

Hullo folks and thank you for responding;
Ok...to clarify; the Mode 464 is the Martin designation for the early 1959 Dyna Soar glider...quite refined and from which they streeettcchhed it into a 30 something thousand monster carrying nuclear re-entry missiles, but...sigh...they gave no model number for it. They would need a NOVA to just heave it off the ground.
Those who said the 7000 series are space are correct and others saying not all are space are both correct; I have a partial list and indeed, there are mixed projects but some are space, otehrs I believe air-cushion, and numerous study contracts Bell was well known to accept whenother firms turned their noses up at them.
The question now becomes...does anybody have listings of Martin Model or Project numbers from say, 300 to700 or higher? That might cover the 1950s projects that immediately multiplied many being the same project but issued to multiple firms; anexample is SR-126, RS-464L, 118P, etc.
Ok thank you for the assistance. This does clarify things some. Have a good weekend.
Bomiwriter

 

[Bomiwriter]

Apology...I neglected to say that D-143 is supposedly Brass Bell as it was actually printed on the inside page of one late Document Report as (Model D-143) ...and I am now suspect over that refined bird.
It was supposed to be absorbed into the RS-464L Dyna Soar Abbreviated Development Plan like all the other boost-glider studies, but as usual and confusing, it stayed a parallel and onward funded study, separate from RS-464L...then to add to the confusion, most of the Brass Bell Docs have been jury-rigged around with date and Doc number changes being superimposed over, by just one or two available only Brass Bell Reports, and had quite long discussions with my researcher who tried to locate those I requested. He said many Brass Bell reports despite my long list simply are not to be had...no explanation on where they are if they are still classified or even DoD restricted circulation wise.
Then, to top it all I find a sheet of Bell numbers with Bell Model D-143 listed as a twin-boom fighter with a question mark beside it. It reflects the same exact thing Bell did to cover the YP-59A Airacomet so doing it yet again, and having perused the late 1958 late Doc reports, I see the glider is very refined with features not seen in the earlier Docs being superimposed over all the other listed Brass Bell Reports. This is strange for an archive to do such a thing. I am now of the mind that PERHAPS several might have been constructed since the USAF in mid-late 1950s wanted a "higher, faster,farther" reconnaissance vehicle...Brass Bell thus qualifies...at least attempt to build several. Bell also projected using a modified B-36 with Brass Bell and even their initial DS-I glider in an extended bomb bay for air-drop tests.
There was always Wendover Range, North Base-Edwards, perhaps The Ranch (A-51), or Holloman AFB since Bell had a facility there for Shrike and Rascal program testing and other projects.
Soo...that is it...thanks for the assistance and maybe I can scrounge up a Martin projects numbers list.
Bomiwriter.

 

[Bomiwriter]

I perused all of my Bell, Martin-Bell Dyna Soar project Files; only one out of a stack of their DS Reports even identifies the early 1959 confguration by number and name-it is indeed, Martin Model 464 "experimental protoype." That version can be seen at APR site...our MIC...Man In Charge there simply gaudied it up with a paint job...somewhat wierd but the art drawings display a black skinned bird, just like th Boeing DS gliders.
That's it...hopefully I can locate some Martin numbers-maybe the orbital bomber versions are listed and would be a few or more numbers beyond the 464 glider.
Ok, thanks for input.
Bomiwriter.

 

[hesham]

Hi Bomiwriter,


are you sure about Martin Model 464 of 1959 ?,in Martin aircraft list,the Model 380
was for 1959 and Model 429 was appeared in 1962,I think the Model 464 is not right
number for its year.

 

[Stargazer]

Is it so difficult to accept the notion that Martin, Bell and Boeing staff may not have been logical at all times? And that calling a project "Model 464" simply indicated it was part of the USAF's larger RS-464L program?

 

[Bomiwriter]

"For Heaven's Sake," YES, having worked with the Dyna Soar material for years now, I saw the relationship between a model 464 and RS-464L designation and RS-620A later. I made the connection years ago, but USAF Docs I learned years and years ago during Space Surveillance tenure as Defense contractor, contained serious errors that caused trouble for us applying thehm to daily work tasks. My QUEST article on the Super Dyna Soar revealed absolutely no designation was attached to it...it was an in-house (DS Project Office) creation.
Gee...for more confusion the various winged space planes and Dyna Soar; are described as an airplane, glider, boost-glider, glide-rocket, early one at Bell, Skip-Glider and...and, Satelloid because it had a man in it. Oh yes, these are all legitimate designations straight from the USAF Air University's Aerospace Glossary. The bombers also; Oribtal Bomber, Orbital Bombardment Weapon System, Orbital Bomb Platform, glide-bomber, yaddi.
To reiterate.............Martin Model 464 Experimental prototype is listed at the top of the specs sheet for that glider! Again...Bell designed the gliders, but Martin for whatever damn reason, assigned it their "Model" number. Go figure this one, and figure in that Martin was the Team Leaders, so they probably decided to assign their model series numbers to Bell's work.
No surviving Bell engineer even remembers what the different Model numbers were and they designed them.
Understand that not all of this detail is mentioned or even consistently adhered to throughout design programs.
Again, I have no MARTIN Model or Project numbers list! A model 399 may also be a Dyna Soar model designation, but I have no Martin list-so the question is which of the 3-4 known gliders are a 399 model! I wrote wrote up in QUEST the Bell, Martin-Bell Alternate Dyna Soar studies some with few or no identification or model numbers, just a name for it.
Now at least we have the basic glider's designation, but there are no Martin Model numbers assigned to the expanded orbital bombers, but at least, I have the cutaway drawings.
Space projects are most difficult to write up from fragmented Docs or none at all just a name, since much went the "Landfill Option," way...gone for good!
Thanks for the assistace and all have a good weekend. Bomiwriter.

 

[Stargazer]

Martin designations are well-documented when it comes to aircraft, but sparse when it's space or missile programs.

Only Martin space designations I have (sorry for being off-topic in this Bell thread):

Martin Model 388 Dyna-Soar DS-I (1961)
Martin Model 410 Apollo proposal
Martin Model 429 M-103 Reentry Vehicle Technology (RVT) studies for Dyna-Soar I proposal (with Bell) (1962)
Martin Model 458 M-103 Advanced lifting body reentry test studies (SV-5 series) (1964)

Consequently, in case Martin actually had a "Martin Model 464" that was related to Dyna-Soar and NOT a shortcut for "Martin Model submitted to USAF's 464L", it would have related to a 1964 or 1965 study, not anything earlier.

Why? Because aside from a handful of (inexplicable) exceptions, All Martin designations were strictly chronological, except for the commercial 303 and 404 and the RB-57D variants (Models 744, 796, 797 — but these numbers could have indicated sub-variants). I also have ONE non-sequential space designation:

Model 698-N Lifting reentry vehicle tested in NASA's 50-inch Mach 10 tunnel (1963?)

But... I have no guarantee that the latter is a Martin designation. It could very well be USAF or NASA.


Hope this helps a bit.

 

[nugo]

Hi All!
My friend Stargazer2006,
Model 388---Martin Dyna Soar-I ?
But source?

 

[Stargazer]

Hi All!
My friend Stargazer2006,
Model 388---Martin Dyna Soar-I ?
But source?

I have no idea. These are designations I collected over the years, I didn't always document where from.
What I can tell you is that I do not add a designation if I'm unsure about its authenticity, and in this case I didn't add a "?" next to it, so I must have been pretty sure that it was correct at the time.

 

[nugo]

I found that the Model 388 Booster;
Source: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=10832 (Martin Drawing 388-0400000: An inboard profile & section view of the Titan II booster with Dyna Soar.)
Martin Drawing 388---A.K.A. Martin Model 388 (my opinion)

 

[Stargazer]

I found that the Model 388 Booster;
Source: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=10832 (Martin Drawing 388-0400000: An inboard profile & section view of the Titan II booster with Dyna Soar.)
Martin Drawing 388---A.K.A. Martin Model 388 (my opinion)

You beat me to it. I was just about to link the very same page!

 

[Stargazer]

Another very interesting online source:
http://thehuwaldtfamily.org/jtrl/vehicle_data/X-Vehicles/X-20/Martin-Bell%27s%20Alternate%201958%20Dyna-Soar%20Studies,%20Quest%20V15N1,%202008.pdf

 

[hesham]

Sorry for my late,


I had this PDF file from long time ago,bout I don't remember where is it in my files,
and I apologize for that late,and the best drawing in my opinion.

 

[Bomiwriter]

Hullo:

Thank you for the input on the model numbers and will log and check them out if possible. The series of vehicles atop the boosters are from the article I wrote for QUEST History of Spaceflight Quarterly back in mid-2000s. They were alternate cheaper variations of the Basic Dyna Soar glider described in the USAF's R&D Research Card (DD-513) outlining what the USAF required including numerous references to previous boost-gliders (mostly Bell's). Confusion over the configurations seen atop the boosters is compounded by the fact that I discovered that each study did NOT strictly originate with the Dyna Soar Team, but the different design studies were created within other divisions-Martin-Denver, Bell Helicopters Division, Martin Spaceflight Division, other Bell engineering teams, all submitting them to the Bell, Martin-Bell Dyna Soar Team. There were dozens more, (who knows but the Shadow and his Mom where those are if they still exist above ground), but not described, illustrated or even listed, and had no known model numbers, if indeed, any were assigned to each design in the first place. They were sent to the USAF Dyna Soar Office at WPAFB to masticate. The para-sail device would be the stressful vehicle, as it took a loooonnggg time to slowly re-enter the atmosphere but still, all are unique and intriguing approaches to a space vehicle-they are also of the Dyna Soar history.
I hope that explains the designs you see in the drawing and I did go into a bit of detail per design drawing in the article...a bit on the long side as a result. Just check the back isses of QUEST-it should be available to anyone interested.
Thank you and have a good day.
Bomiwrier