battlecruiser HMS Tiger survives til Second World War?

Owens Z

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
6 October 2023
Messages
1
Reaction score
2
Battlecruiser HMS Tiger, commissioned in 1914, was scrapped in 1932 after distinguished service to the Royal Navy. What if she hadn't been scrapped, and (being by all accounts in good shape) survived five more years, when the looming threat from Japan, Italy, and Germany was becoming obvious? Perhaps to comply with the London Naval Treaty she was demilitarized in 1932 rather than scrapped, like the Hiei of similar design; or a tired R-class battleship was scrapped in her place; or she simply languished rusting in some backwater. (No aspersion is cast here on Britain's compliance with signed arms limitation treaties, which was much stricter than that of most signatories).

Using our knowledge of the times and the technologies, and, yes, the benefit of hindsight, what would be the optimum course to get Tiger into shape to fight in the coming war, if you agree with me that the big ship would be useful? I suggest to you that a middle course would have been wisest, between the barest minimum (scrape the barnacles, slap on a new coat of paint, enlist a few hundred coal stokers, and sail to war to do her best) and the extreme and expensive reconstructions of the Kongo class and the Andrea Dorias, which among many other things lengthened and re-formed the entire hulls. I will call my refitted warship HMS Tiger bis, for clarity. Tiger bis would be about two years off her feet (say, mid-1937 to mid-1939) and would have the following work done:

· strip out the original direct-drive steam turbines, coal-fired boilers, and coal bunkers, and replace with modern geared steam turbines, new lower-rpm propellers, and oil-fired boilers

· entirely delete the underwater torpedo tubes and torpedo magazines

· replace the dated 13.5-inch guns (1410 lb Greenboy shells) with eight 14-inch Mark VII guns (1590 lb shells) as used on the new King George V battleships, and substantially increase the max elevation from 20°

· add modest bulges to the sides, to better resist torpedo hits

· drizzle anti-aircraft cannon around the weather deck, and [later] increase their number and update the weapons as the Second World War progresses, like all other capital ships did

· update communications, and [later] add radars and electronic warfare gear as those become available


Although they were out of production, Britain had some stores of 13.5 shells and guns left in the late 1930's, but I still think a firepower upgrade is indicated. Weight of metal on the enemy from Tiger bis's broadside is usefully more than the Renown class's 11,628 lbs (and also more than the Scharnhorsts, updated Kongos, etc.). No doubt during the refit, judicious additions of deck armor would be done, complementing the additions done post-Jutland, but I don't want Tiger bis to be heavier than, say, 4% above her 1918 full-load displacement, both for reasons of economy and also to avoid the serious weight problems of, for example, the Queen Elizabeth class and HMS Vanguard (as I said, hindsight is allowed). Some 6-inch casemate guns can be taken off as needed to help with this weight goal. There were no aircraft aboard after the two flying-off platforms for Sopwiths had been discarded, but I affirm Tiger bis has no aircraft handling capability. The ship is faster than her 29-knot maximum when new. Tiger bis is more robust and hit-tolerant than the flimsy Renowns (which nonetheless fought valiantly).

What do you all think of my suggested refit? Please weigh in. I believe this ship would have been worthwhile for many roles in WW2 against Japan, Italy, and Germany. I don't know whether Tiger bis would have survived the savage fighting (and speculation on that is welcome), but if she did, she would today be a proud museum ship in Portsmouth to visit, the last of the Splendid Cats, with funky red, white, and blue artwork on her hull inspired by the dazzle painting of yesteryear.
 
I think the Admiralty's view of Tiger was best summed up by Friedman:-

"Although the battlecruiser Tiger and the four Iron Dukes survived the Washington Treaty .....virtually nothing was invested in them. Tiger became a gunnery test and training ship. What money was spent went into the ships with lasting value, the 15in battlecruisers and battleships."

Like Hiei (or Hiyie as spelt in the Treaty) Iron Duke survived the 1930 London Treaty by virtue of Article II(1)(b). The only way Tiger survives is as a stand in for Iron Duke.

"These ships shall be reduced to the condition prescribed in Section V of Annex II to Part II of the present Treaty. The work of reducing these vessels to the required condition shall begin, in the case of the United States and the United Kingdom within twelve months, and in the case of Japan within eighteen months from the coming into force of the present Treaty; the work shall be completed within six months of the expiration of the abovementioned periods."



Section V

Vessels retained for training purposes


(a) In addition to the rights already possessed by any High Contracting Party under the Washington Treaty, each High Contracting Party is permitted to retain for training purposes exclusively the following vessels:​


........United Kingdom: 1 capital ship ("Iron Duke");
(b) Vessels retained for training purposes under the provisions of paragraph (a) shall, within six months of the date on which they are required to be disposed of, be dealt with as follows:
1. Capital ships​

The following is to be carried out:​

(1) Removal of main armament guns, revolving parts of all barbettes and turrets; machinery for operating turrets; but three turrets with their armament may be retained in each ship;​

(2) Removal of all ammunition and explosives in excess of the quantity required for target practice training for the guns remaining on board;​

(3) Removal of conning tower and the side armour belt between the foremost and aftermost barbettes;​

(4) Removal or mutilation of all torpedo tubes;​

(5) Removal or mutilation on board of all boilers in excess of the number required for a maximum speed of eighteen knots.



Iron Duke's forward boilers were mutilated and the remainder converted to oil firing.

From Burt "British Battleships 1919 - 1945" in March 1939 the possibility of restoring her to active service was examined. 11in main belt to be added. Missing 13.5in turrets and guns put back aboard (the were in storage at Rosyth). New secondary armament of 4-8 4.5" or 5.25" mounts. He goes on:-

"The main argument against the project was the question of speed: the entire boiler/engine/machinery arrangements would have to bbe renewed to achieve the desired increase, with outside estimates ranging from £920,000 to £1,200,000, which could be better spent on a new ship, it is not surprising that the idea was dropped."

The same issues would have been met with your proposed modernisation of Tiger.

As for your idea of replacing the main armament in Tiger with 14" Mk.VII from the KGV, unfortunately it is not that simple. Each turret is designed for a specific weapon. It sits on an armoured barbette designed to absorb the forces generated on firing. That barbette is engineered into the ship around it. Put a new gun in and you need to look at re-engineering the whole ship from top to bottom.

The 14" gun as a calibre wasn't selected for the new battleships until late 1935. The guns then had to be designed & built along with their new turrets. They were only ready for installation in KGV herself in 1939/40.

Then there is the issue of whether industry could produce the new guns / turrets / armour necessary on top of what was already needed for the other reconstructions and new construction. These industries were run down inter war due to a lack of orders and it took time to get them back up and running. They were limiting factors in battleship production and reconstruction.

When it came to the Italian ships, their bow sections simply had a new structure built outside the original structure. Their existing 12"/46 (305mm) guns were remanufactured as 320mm/44 and fitted to the same turrets with the guns generating a modest 13% increase in muzzle energy. The increase in the forces involved in going from the 13.5" of Tiger to the 14" of the KGV would, I believe, have been far greater.

So while Tiger might appear useful in WW2, she was essentially a 30 year old pre-Jutland design, requiring a huge, for the time, amount of money spent to reactivate her that would still have produced a mediocre ship useful for little more than convoy escort.
 
And financially such a comprehensive rebuild would require the Brits to substitute her for one of the ships that did get a reconstruction IOTL - there just isn't the money available for more, and the Brits declined rebuilding Barham and Repulse to Warspite standards anyway.

I doubt even this rebuilt Tiger would be worth giving up a reconstruction of Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, or Renown.
 
Britain could do a lot of rebuilding of more valuable ships before rebuilding Tiger was reached on the priority list.
 
Iron Duke's forward boilers were mutilated and the remainder converted to oil firing.

From Burt "British Battleships 1919 - 1945" in March 1939 the possibility of restoring her to active service was examined. 11in main belt to be added. Missing 13.5in turrets and guns put back aboard (the were in storage at Rosyth). New secondary armament of 4-8 4.5" or 5.25" mounts. He goes on:-

"The main argument against the project was the question of speed: the entire boiler/engine/machinery arrangements would have to bbe renewed to achieve the desired increase, with outside estimates ranging from £920,000 to £1,200,000, which could be better spent on a new ship, it is not surprising that the idea was dropped."

The same issues would have been met with your proposed modernisation of Tiger.
Hardly... Iron Duke's original top speed was 21.25 knots... her hull was designed for that and slower - to increase her speed more than maybe a knot or so would require hull lengthening and reshaping similar to that applied to the Italian and Japanese rebuilds.

Tiger's original speed was 28 knots... no hull changes would be required to maintain that speed through the modernization - and maybe reach 30 if available SHP is boosted.

As for the guns... the 14" twin turret on the KGVs (1939) required a barbette inner diameter of 29' 6" - while the 13.5" twin turrets all had a barbette inner diameter of 28'.

That, along with the differences with the gun mounts etc, means that they would have to keep their 13.5" guns and turrets (suitably modified for greater elevation). The turrets that were removed from Centurion & Iron Duke historically were kept, so if Tiger had been training ship her removed turret would be easily replaced.

Even so, I still think that the UK would be better off using her to enable either of the unmodernized 15" battlecruisers to be modernized. Hood would likely survive her encounter with Bismarck with improved armor, but Repulse would still fall victim to the IJN torpedo bombers in my opinion, so unless Tiger is sent to Singapore instead of Repulse, then Hood should be the one modernized.
 
Burt doesn't say what the speed required from a refitted Iron Duke was, and makes no mention of hull reshaping. But the need to add bulges would have meant an increase in power just to get her back to 21 knots without massive hull changes.

But Tiger, stripped as a gunnery training ship as set out in the 1930 London Treaty (see above - that would have limited her to 18 knots just like Iron Duke meaning removal / mutilation of far more boilers than lD lost. She would also have had to be bulged resulting in a loss of speed. So greater cost to restore her original 28 knots), through the 1930s is useless without spending money on modernisation, which was better spent elsewhere.

With everything going on and with its worldwide commitments the Admiralty felt it couldn't have any more than 3 capital ships (of the 15 it then had) out of service for reconstruction at a time from the mid-1930s

1933-37 "large repairs" to Repulse, Malaya & Warspite. When they opened up Warspite they found her machinery needed replaced which extended the refit time and allowed some of the changes planned for the next group to be incorporated. So she became a kind of half way house between Repulse & Malaya on the one hand and the next 3 on the other.

These were too early for modernised secondary armament of 4.5" or 5.25" DP guns (1935 designs).

Royal Oak was also worked on in this period before it was decided to concentrate on the faster ships.

1936-1940 Renown, QE & Valiant.

Then from 1940 Nelson, Rodney & Hood. But war stopped that. Had Hood survived, something would have had to be done in 1942 as her machinery needed a total overhaul.

Each round was 1 battlecruiser & 2 battleships. Hood, being the most modern of the 3 battlecruisers was always going to be the last to be reconstructed.

The idea in 1930 of keeping a 13.5" armed battlecruiser designed pre-WW1 and sacrificing a 15" R class battleship in place of ID is plainly absurd.

Edit:- Barham had been the last QE to go through the previous round of modernisation, being in dock 1/31-1/34).

Nelson & Rodney were a priority over Hood due to their 16" main armament needed to challenge the Nagatos.
 
Last edited:
What about of simply drilling 343-mm barrels to 356-mm size? Of course, it would still require turret modernization (breech and loading systems), but could be done much easier than complete turret reconstruction).
 
What about of simply drilling 343-mm barrels to 356-mm size? Of course, it would still require turret modernization (breech and loading systems), but could be done much easier than complete turret reconstruction).
Not that simple.

These big guns were of "built up construction" with a number of tubes fitted one inside the other.

There are photos here of 13.5" under construction at the bottom of this page

While the Italians took the 305mm guns and converted them to 320mm there was a lot more involved than simply "drilling" out the bore. The description given on Navweaps is

"The conversion consisted of boring out to remove the original A tube and apparently some of the wire. The remainder was shrunk on to a new A tube. It is possible that a shrunk or tupped inner A tube was also fitted."

This work could only be carried out in a handful of factories in the UK in the 1930s (there were only 3 involved in manufacturing the 78, including spares, 14" Mk.VII for the KGVs). As can be seen from the photos, it involved seriously large chunks of steel, huge machinery and a lot of heat. There is a photo in this article of the "Cathedral" at Beardmore's Parkhead Forge Works in Glasgow, where many of these guns were manufactured.

Those factories were also responsible for relining the 15" & 16" guns as the liners were worn away through routine use.

So again the question is where is the spare capacity for the design of your proposed conversion let alone the manufacturing capacity.
 
Back
Top Bottom