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Thread to discuss the avionics of the F-14
Do you have any data about AWG-9 and APG-71 detection range? I tried to find myself and ask in several forums but get very conflicting informationAWG-9 Radar
While I prepare this post, check out this video of the AWG-9 display
Source
- Great Planes: F-14 Tomcat Discovery Wings 1988
You sure about fighter-sized? IIRC ranges for both AWG-9 and AIM-54 seeker were stated for bomber-sized target.It can theoretically detect a fighter-sized target (typically 5 sq m) at up to about 200km
How much better APG-71 range compared to AWG-9?Maximum range is achieved in PDS (Velocity Search) mode which doesn't show range, only velocity and azimuth. The AWG-9 isn't instrumented in km at all, it'd be nm (nautical miles).
So AWG-9 is only approximately as powerful as APG-80?Few words about AWG-9 range & some speculations:
Long time ago, I found in Flight International 1976/January(pages 17, 18) statement that F-15 radar has range less about 15% than AWG-9 rated on 115nm.
Both radars were produced by Hughes, share the same antenna (diameter 0.9m ?).
Comparing transmitter power -see post above (10.2kW vs 5.2kW) - this statement seems to be correct: (5.2/10.2)^0.25 = 0.845
On the other hand, Russian estimated range of APG-63 on 100km, and stated the same requirements for radar of Su-27.
So 118km or 115nm (213km)?
Both ranges might be correct.
Let's count down, using only radar equation: x^(1/4) - where ^ means power
-> 115nm is ~213 km.
1. Above is in PDS or velocity search. For range search (RWS) target have to be "scanned" triple : one for basic signal - to get doppler frequency, two times with signal linearly modulated (http://twanclik.free.fr/electricity/electronic/pdfdone8/Introduction_to_Airborne_Radar.pdf see chapter 14 FM ranging). Thus in RWS energy emitted is 3 times lower*, thus
213 * (1/3)^1/4 =213 * 0.76 = 161km
* in reality in VS - accumulated energy is not 3 times more , as period of coherent integration does not extend 3 times, rather - there are 3 coherent integrations averaged or summarize otherwise. (Postcoherent integration gives at least than N^(1/2) gain, or better so (1/3^0.5)^0.25 *213 =185km.)
Anyway it is stated that detection range in VS is 25% -30% more than in RWS. Taking 25% - gives exactly 170km (0.8*213=170.4) - as mentioned by Overscan
2. above range is for 5m2 target, for 3m2 this is : 170km* 3/5^(1/4) = 150km
3. This point is my speculation**, but I assume that waveform used in AWG-9 was almost 50% duty ratio, and AN/APG-63 use let say 25% duty ratio.
50% duty ratio means that radar emits signal about 50% of time, the rest time listen echoes. Actually this may give more range (up to 15-19%), but only for situation that target echo is not eclipsed by emitting pulse. There is chance for that about let say 20-30% . In other cases part of target echo is not visible what gives shorter range, or even not visible at all. In average, expected detection range will be less, but actual ranges will vary more = comparing to lower duty factor.
Lower duty factor gives shorter range "on paper" but with higher probability (let say chance is 60-70% of being not eclipsed at all)
Of course there may be some scenarios when high duty ratio has advantage: for example bomber 100m^2 , PDS detection range about 400km (vs 336); with low closure speed (let say 900km/h each, 250m/s), with 14s refresh ratio - scans are refreshed every 7km what, may give faster detection even if single detection probability is low.
But in case of many small targets with high closure speed, RWS , pilot probably want more confident detection.
Anyway, assuming 25% duty factor comparing to 50% is another 15% less range ((25/50)^0.25=0.84) that gives : 150 * 0.84 =126 km
4. Finally if we take difference in transmitter power between AN/APG and AWG-9 : (5.2/10.2)^0.25 = 106 km what is quite close to the Russian estimate
Anyway, using similar measure, one can say that that AWG-9 has average range about 126km for 3m2 target in RWS mode.
**My assumptions are made on basis of radar generation. Pulse doppler radars before AWG-9 , for example on USN Phantoms, uses such 50% duty ratio as this was simpler (simple filter can be used) also some later radars (like Fox hunter AI 24 on Tornado ADF- "interrupted continues wave"). In later design there was tendency to decrease duty rate, what decrease power but also decrease eclipsing. This requires more advance processing including digital filters, but also multiplies number of necessary doppler filters - as there is not single range bin for example 2 or more (if you include pulse compression). For example radar from Mig-29 has duty ratio 25% and two doppler "channels". I assume similar approach in APG-63. But this is my speculation, and actual in AWG this might be more complicated, and manually tuned by RIO.(reference in above post suggest many pulse width, and average power in doppler mode : 7kW vs 10kW peak power what suggest duty factor more than 50%)
Ugh... I kinda disagree that it's irrelevant. Cuz AWG-9 wasn't just "little" earlier than N007 and tech difference between two is quite substantial, in processing power too.@GARGEAN your scepticism is irrelevant, the AWG-9 range figures given were published long ago by the US Navy and Hughes and broadly confirmed by former F-14 pilots.
In terms of development timing, AWG-9 was a little earlier than Zaslon, but given the relative lag in electronics and radar, not enough to expect Zaslon to be 'better' overall.
Ugh... I kinda disagree that it's irrelevant. Cuz AWG-9 wasn't just "little" earlier than N007 and tech difference between two is quite substantial, in processing power too.@GARGEAN your scepticism is irrelevant, the AWG-9 range figures given were published long ago by the US Navy and Hughes and broadly confirmed by former F-14 pilots.
In terms of development timing, AWG-9 was a little earlier than Zaslon, but given the relative lag in electronics and radar, not enough to expect Zaslon to be 'better' overall.
Argon-15 bashing is something out of here. Tracking limits were more established by memory usage and doctrinal shaping (why have more than 4 firing channels when you have 4 LRAAMs).
Range is different from range. That's why I tried to specify details for those numbers. As for what tech should've given it better detection range? It's ESA, thus have quite a bit narrower beams giving it better power to return ratio. It has quite healthy dig processing (despite your bashing of Argon-15A which I tbh not totally understand). It IS quite powerful (don't have specific tube info, but N011M have 8kw tube with ~5kw peak while having 1.2kw average, so it's not just ×2). BTW on N011 example - M has better range chars despite having less peak power than slotted 011. ESA matters.So what aspect of Zaslon's design implies it should have longer detection range than AWG-9?
NIIP have given range figures which are shorter than those known for AWG-9, and I see no reason to doubt them. You can believe Zaslon is superior operationally to AWG-9, but it's strange to argue it must have longer range because its newer.
N011M have 8kw tube with ~5kw peak while having 1.2kw average, so it's not just ×2)
Mkay, if you REALLY feel the need to go that defensive - it's indeed pointless to continue. I personally tried to figure it out properly, not going into "hurr burr my toy is better than yours".If you don't know what a duty cycle is, then there's little point pursuing the conversation.
To be fair though, why couldn't modern radar use higher PRF? Aren't they supposed to be changeable?. I know too high PRF could lead to range ambiguity, but if i recall correctly velocity search is still a function on most modern radarN011M have 8kw tube with ~5kw peak while having 1.2kw average, so it's not just ×2)
If you don't know what a duty cycle is, then there's little point pursuing the conversation.
Early pulse-doppler radars typically used High PRF high duty cycle of about 50%, that is the transmitter is transmitting 50% of the time, receiving 50% of the time (hence average power is half maximum power).
Modern pulse-doppler radars typically use lower duty ratios and medium PRF (or mixture of high and medium) or example N001/N019 use 25% duty cycle (radar is transmitting 25% of the time, receiving 75% of the time) hence peak power is 4 times average power.
Many things included, but they mostly can be summed as better energy handling. Better antenna designs produce much narrower beams, thus needing less energy for same radiation density and return accumulation. Plus, as usual, measurement confusion: some state power as whole system consumption, some as specifically radiating element consumption, some as finalized power after all losses and so on.In this context - a thing I do not quite understand is the stated peak power of fighter radars.
Early AI Radars like the SCR 720 of the 1940s had a peak output of around 70kw and this number typically rised to 150kw - 250kw for fighter radars in the 1950s (example AN/APG-37 at 250 KW peak power for the F-86D). For later fighter radars the stated kw-output numbers were drastically reduced - for example 12kw peak power for the huge ASG-18 of the YF-12 or 10kw for the AWG-9 (as mentioned above).
Is this the result of a change in output measuring method?
In this context - a thing I do not quite understand is the stated peak power of fighter radars.
Early AI Radars like the SCR 720 of the 1940s had a peak output of around 70kw and this number typically rised to 150kw - 250kw for fighter radars in the 1950s (example AN/APG-37 at 250 KW peak power for the F-86D). For later fighter radars the stated kw-output numbers were drastically reduced - for example 12kw peak power for the huge ASG-18 of the YF-12 or 10kw for the AWG-9 (as mentioned above).
Is this the result of a change in output measuring method?
24 tracked and 6 targetedHow many targets could the AWG-9 and AWG-71 trak and target at once?
Same for both radars I assume?24 tracked and 6 targetedHow many targets could the AWG-9 and AWG-71 trak and target at once?
There was a big push in the 1960s and 70s to make long range airborne radars with 'automatic' acquisition and tracking processes to lighten the workload on the pilot.
Many new technologies were needed to accomplish this, including high throughput processors, coherent transmitters and amplifiers, increased computer memory and new tracking algorithms. Doppler processing would be required to reduce/filter clutter and enable automatic acquisition and tracking. A new waveform, high pulse repetition frequency (HPRF), would be needed to facilitate this processing technique. This HPRF waveform would prove far superior to Low PRF waveforms used in 'pulse radars' of the past.
These older 'pulse radars' required a human to monitor the radar scope and manually pick out targets hidden within the radar clutter.
In the 1960s, the AN/AWG-9 was at the forefront of cutting edge radar design. With the new HPRF transmission/reception and automatic tracking being incorporated into its design. However, unlike other radars of this new generation, the AWG-9 retained its 'man in the loop' design of past 'pulse radars'. The RIO would still be able to manually pick up faint targets (or targets masked by clutter) that the automatic system wouldn't. Even today, automatic trackers need the target to be ~12dB (16 times) stronger than the noise in order to track. A skilled operator could do the same with a target only 3dB stronger than the background noise. View: https://i.imgur.com/2zf64Tc.png?1
Thus, where these new processes failed, a human could step in and in many cases out perform the automatic processes of the receiver.
I think the ASCC's Zaslon designation "Flash Dance" is quite literal.
ASG-18 (Hughes' direct ancestor to AWG-9) was a lot heavier (very similar to Zaslon, by the way) and used very similar High PRF (250 Kc/s, compared to 200 Kc/s) to Zaslon and FM ranging just like Foxhunter (and probably Zaslon too). AWG-9 benefited from more modern computing hardware allowing the weight of the radar to be drastically reduced compared to its predecessor, but conceptually was very similar.Not to derail but any idea how the ASG-18, in the YF-12A, compared to the AWG-9?