Avro/Hawker/BAe Projects After-1945

[hesham]

Hi,

also from the same site;

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.fildes3/Type%20602%20to%20862

 

[Petrus]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.fildes3/Type%20602%20to%20862

"The page cannot be found".

Piotr

 

[Stargazer]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.fildes3/Type%20602%20to%20862

"The page cannot be found".

Piotr

It DOES work! It is the spaces in the file's name that probably pose a problem to your browser.

Try it like this: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.fildes3/Type 602 to 862

Alternately, if it still doesn't work, type "site:http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.fildes3/" in Google and the two files will appear in the list.

 

[Jemiba]

Sorry, I've the same problem.
Tried it with Firefox and IE7, result "The page cannot be found"

Trying the alternative way, I really get the list including the two pdf-files, but
by clicking, copying or whatever it's again "The page cannot be found"
But Stéphane is right I think, it's a problem with the browser, the file obviously
IS there, as I can open the html version of the pdf. Without drawings then, of course ... :-[

 

[Petrus]

It DOES work! It is the spaces in the file's name that probably pose a problem to your browser.

Now the link (in its original form) is working properly. I suspect something was wrong on the website's server and it's just been fixed up.

Piotr

 

[hesham]

It is working;

please try;

http://www.avroheritage.com/page10a.html

and that is for Tophe,the Avro-733 twin boom transport project.

 

[Maveric]

Thanks for this great link, hesham.

 

[Sundog]

This is awesome! So many designs I haven't seen before. I really like the 752 (IIRC) the VTOL military transport that seems like a distant predecessor to the supposed "Senior Citizen" designs we've seen.

 

[Tophe]

Thanks for the Avro 733. Is this an Argosy derivative or competitor? or jet of a different class? (the link gives unavailable pages for me)

 

[Mike Pryce]

The Avro 733 is the Argosy wing - it used a Shackleton-based wing rather than the all-new one originally designed. The Shackleton wing saved development costs. See:

http://www.argosyair.co.uk/introduction.html

The wing was later replaced by an all-new one on the the Srs.200:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200770.html?search=argosy

but by that time the market had gone from the Argosy.

Great link Hesham. Thanks a lot. My Chrome browser has problems reading it though. Had to revert to Explorer (shock - Microsoft outdoes Google!). Chrome does seem to have an issue with some PDFs.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also we can ask if Avro-700 was submitted to Spec. 8/46 or not ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Too small. 8/46 was for Brabazon IIB, 28 - 32 passengers, and led to the Viscount

 

[Hood]

The 700 is covered in Stuck on the Drawing Board. I'm at work at the moment and can't remember exactly off hand, but I think it was submitted to Brabazon Type V. I'll double-check later.

 

[hesham]

Too small. 8/46 was for Brabazon IIB, 28 - 32 passengers, and led to the Viscount

You are right Schneiderman,

and for my dear Hood,was Brabazon V intended for small airplane like this ?.

My next question is; was Avro-702 & Avro-703 which purposed for Canada,entered
any Specification ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Brabazon V was for an 8-12 passenger feederliner. It was then split, Va led to spec 18/44 and the Miles Marathon. Vb was spec 26/43 and the DH Dove.
Avro Type 700 may have been designed to Brabazon V but as it is refered to as an Anson replacement I guess they may have been targeting an RAF market rather than civil.

 

[hesham]

Brabazon V was for an 8-12 passenger feederliner. It was then split, Va led to spec 18/44 and the Miles Marathon. Vb was spec 26/43 and the DH Dove.
Avro Type 700 may have been designed to Brabazon V but as it is refered to as an Anson replacement I guess they may have been targeting an RAF market rather than civil.

Thanks.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I can't determine what Avro-704 advanced jet trainer Project submitted to
which specification ?.

 

[Schneiderman]

Meerkcoms and Morgan say that the Type 714 was a contender for T.16/48 issue 4 (won by the Jet Provost) but as that project seems to have been for a prop. trainer. I wonder if that is a typing error and they meant Type 704?

 

[hesham]

Meerkcoms and Morgan say that the Type 714 was a contender for T.16/48 issue 4 (won by the Jet Provost) but as that project seems to have been for a prop. trainer. I wonder if that is a typing error and they meant Type 704?

I agree with that opinion,and here is Avro-714

 

[Hood]

I have to slightly disagree, Spec T.16/48 was for a piston-engined trainer and the Percival Provost was the eventual winner.

The Jet Provost was a private-venture. It's interesting that the Boulton-Paul P.119 jet trainer would date from roughly the same time as the 704 and also was Nene-powered. That too was a private-venture. I think the manufacturers were busy trying to get the Air Ministry & Ministry of Supply interested in a jet-powered advanced trainer to replace/complement the Vampire and Meteor conversions, in this case Percival seemed to grab the necessary attention to reach production status.

 

[Schneiderman]

So is that an error in Meekcoms and Morgan? They show T.16/48 subdivided into five 'issues' dated 11/9/48, 30/8/49, 20/8/51, 27/5/53 and 21/5/57 with Issue 4, to meet OR.321, being for design and construction of the Jet provost, other contenders being Miles M.100 Student and Avro Type 714 (which is not likely). Given the lengthy decision processes that marked procurement at this time the 1947 project initiation date for the Avro Type 704 could still be reasonable for tender under Issue 4.
As Type 704B is based on the Athena the thought process to upgrade to a jet trainer matches that of Percival with the Provost/Jet Provost.

 

[hesham]

For T.16/48,the main tenders were here;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2812.msg265505.html#msg265505

but very hard to specific or ID all the companies designation which involved in it ?.

 

[Hood]

They are not wrong in that the Jet Provost prototype was covered by T.16/48/4 and the production aircraft under T.16/48/5.
However, Percival began work on the Jet Provost in 1951 and Miles began work on the M.100 in 1953 as a cheaper alternative to the Jet Provost. Around the same time (1951) Boulton Paul studied the P.125 Jet Balliol and the P.124 developed from the bigger P.119 advanced trainer project. All these were private ventures but they were not direct competitors to any official requirement, although the new all-jet training syllabus then being introduced must have informed these designs. In any case, if we believe the Avro file, the 704 dates from around 1947 and so precedes these designs by several years.

The Air Ministry wrote OR.321 to cover the JP and the Ministry of Supply, not illogically bearing in the mind the family tree, reissued T.16/48 to cover the JP and presumably saved some bureaucratic paperwork (and Treasury interference) in the process.

Interestingly, it appears the de Havilland DH.115 Vampire T.11 was also initially a private-venture, as was the Meteor T.7 produced to T.1/47. So, I think perhaps the Canberra T.4 to T.11/47 was the first official jet-powered trainer actually instigated by the Air Ministry.

 

[Schneiderman]

Thanks, that clarifies things.
Its a problem with project numbering systems with several companies that the initiation date can often be somewhat adrift from when it is fully developed and/or tendered. Conversely many projects were initiated before being allocated an official number. For the Avro Athena, Type 701, it looks as if they worked on a series of actaul and possible developments in parallel.
The Type 704, with twin Derwents exhausting through a single nozzle and individual cockpits is curious.

 

[hesham]

Again,

the Avr-705 and Avro-706,did they submit to a Specification or not ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the Avro-709 was intended for Spec. 5/48,also the tenders in this contest were; Blackburn B-73,Fairey
FC-4,FC-5 & FC-6 and Shorts.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

also I suspect in Avro-708 if it was submitted to a specification or not ?.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I don't know what was this Specification,Avro-712 to Or.259 ?.

 

[Apophenia]

...
My next question is; was Avro-702 & Avro-703 which purposed for Canada,entered
any Specification ?.

The Avro 702 was probably to the RCAF requirement AIR-4-10 to replace the Federal Aircraft Anson V navigational trainer. This new nav trainer was to be powered by twin 600 hp Pratt & Whitney Wasps. For AIR-4-10, the Avro 702 would have been in competition with a submission from Victory Aircraft.

AIR-4-10 was cancelled in 1945. Its replacement requirement was for a more powerful aircraft (2 x R-1830 Twin Wasps). But, by then, Victory Aircraft had become A.V. Roe Canada Ltd. Avro Canada completed a high-winged nav trainer mockup before that spec was also cancelled in 1947.

The Avro 703 was to April 1946 TCA requirement for Rolls-Royce AJ.65 (Avon) powered airliners. The Avro 703 probably looked something like a twin-engined Avro 706 Ashton. The project was eclipsed by the domestic Avro Canada C102 Jetliner.

As for the Avro 705 and "unbuilt" Avro 706, I presume that these Nene-powered concepts were early iterations of what became the Ashton research aircraft.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Apophenia.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

and here is Avro-697 for Spec. 2/47.

 

[ursrius]

The illustrations that Hesham is sharing come, of course, from the now extinct http://www.avroheritage.com/page10a.html.
I, like many, I am sure, downloaded a copy of the pdf's at the time, but does anyone know if they are, or likely to be available again on the web and, if not, who owns the intellectual property?

 

[martinbayer]

The illustrations that Hesham is sharing come, of course, from the now extinct http://www.avroheritage.com/page10a.html.
I, like many, I am sure, downloaded a copy of the pdf's at the time, but does anyone know if they are, or likely to be available again on the web and, if not, who owns the intellectual property?

The files are still accessible at https://web.archive.org/web/20120425084927/http://www.avroheritage.com/page10a.html.

Martin

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The illustrations that Hesham is sharing come, of course, from the now extinct http://www.avroheritage.com/page10a.html.
I, like many, I am sure, downloaded a copy of the pdf's at the time, but does anyone know if they are, or likely to be available again on the web and, if not, who owns the intellectual property?

Avro Heritage Museum, I would suggest.

http://avroheritagemuseum.co.uk