Avro F.177 instead of Saro?

[zen]

if.....if Avro had received preference over Saro for the F.53 (memory can't get to books) rocket fighter and this had flown just as Saro's had. Then is it not more likely that Avro's developed design to F.177 would be much further along by 1957?
And could it have progressed to flight instead of cancellation?

What stands this some chance is that conversion of the mixed powerplant fighter to a more substantial jet engine seems a simpler prospect on Avro's design. Essentially the jet engine installation under the fusilage makes such a change on the existing prototype possible to prototype the concept.
It might even be possible to take the then existing prototype back into the factory and chop out the small 'get you home' engine, inlet and exhaust for the larger more powerful system.
Making it possible for something to fly ahead of cancellation and thus potentially more survivable into the desperate attempts to keep this alive into 1958.
What also favours this is Avro had more snd better facilities available than Saro.
What might also stand this some merit is that use of a delta wing. Much favoured at the time.
That same engine installation also favours maintenance, well over the likes of the Lightning.
Could this have gone forward?
That engine installation does favour any change to say Avons or later Spey. The main issues being the nose-cockpit and the whole paraphernalia of the rocket.
Avro had favoured the LOx Kerosene system over HTP Kerosene. Perhaps had they opted for the latter this might have swayed the already favourable view of Avro's effort?

The downside is that a navalised version is going to differ quite notably from the RAF version and this might so hamper the idea as to make it less likely than Saro's design.
After all it's the RN that has more pressing need of such or indeed any supersonic fighter and the RN order was the last to be chopped months after the bulk of the '57 cuts.

 

[pathology_doc]

I see a problem with this even in the alternative future in which a lot of the cancelled projects actually get built and enter service. In that future, as I see it, Avro has too much of its resource pool invested in building Vulcans while at the same time getting the 730 to the starting line.

I see a strong possibility that with Gloster (Javelin) and Fairey (various deltas) also in the mix, Avro is (IMHO quite rightly) going to be perceived as being a bomber firm and be told to specialize in large bombers rather than trying to enter a delta-wing fighter market that's already crowded, as it were; not to mention the very niche jet/rocket hybrid market (Saro).

My understanding is that Saunders-Roe were on the verge of being able to start production when the axe fell, and this because the SR.177 was their one big project upon which they were able to concentrate all their R&D resources. Even in a money-filled alternative future where all this stuff gets at least to flying prototype stage, I think there are sensible reasons for telling Avro to limit their small deltas to research and stay the hell out of fighters.

 

[zen]

I see a problem with this even in the alternative future in which a lot of the cancelled projects actually get built and enter service. In that future, as I see it, Avro has too much of its resource pool invested in building Vulcans while at the same time getting the 730 to the starting line.

I see a strong possibility that with Gloster (Javelin) and Fairey (various deltas) also in the mix, Avro is (IMHO quite rightly) going to be perceived as being a bomber firm and be told to specialize in large bombers rather than trying to enter a delta-wing fighter market that's already crowded, as it were; not to mention the very niche jet/rocket hybrid market (Saro).

My understanding is that Saunders-Roe were on the verge of being able to start production when the axe fell, and this because the SR.177 was their one big project upon which they were able to concentrate all their R&D resources. Even in a money-filled alternative future where all this stuff gets at least to flying prototype stage, I think there are sensible reasons for telling Avro to limit their small deltas to research and stay the hell out of fighters.

I will agree with pretty much all of that. But this is just an AH.

 

[Hobbes]

Checking the Avro designations list, 3 numbers were allocated to mixed-power aircraft to follow on from the 720: 726, 727 and 728.

Some information on these can be found here.

The full Avro types list contains side views.

 

[pathology_doc]

I see a problem with this even in the alternative future in which a lot of the cancelled projects actually get built and enter service. In that future, as I see it, Avro has too much of its resource pool invested in building Vulcans while at the same time getting the 730 to the starting line.

I see a strong possibility that with Gloster (Javelin) and Fairey (various deltas) also in the mix, Avro is (IMHO quite rightly) going to be perceived as being a bomber firm and be told to specialize in large bombers rather than trying to enter a delta-wing fighter market that's already crowded, as it were; not to mention the very niche jet/rocket hybrid market (Saro).

My understanding is that Saunders-Roe were on the verge of being able to start production when the axe fell, and this because the SR.177 was their one big project upon which they were able to concentrate all their R&D resources. Even in a money-filled alternative future where all this stuff gets at least to flying prototype stage, I think there are sensible reasons for telling Avro to limit their small deltas to research and stay the hell out of fighters.

I will agree with pretty much all of that. But this is just an AH.

Oh, for sure. But I do note that even Derek Wood, bitter as he was, admitted in the what-if section at the end of Project Cancelled that not all of the pet projects he wept over could have been built. It's fun to look at what shouldn't have happened even if they'd had the money for it.