StraGen410

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I have been reconsidering about the potential of Avro Arrow and its related Canadian made weapon systems

After looking at its early cold war era background history for multiple times, I have come to this conclusion below:

To be honest, it was really difficult to find an effective combat role for the large delta wing interceptor plane to fit inside NATO’s aerial tactics and strategies against the Eastern Bloc.

There were already several better and more versatile competitors like Mcdonell F-4 Phantom II as well as the rapid development in ICBM technology at its time, so it was getting more difficult to gain governmental approval for official RCAF service and mass production. Moreover, its prototypes never armed with guns.

Avro Arrow CF-105 is merely a glorified propaganda until today

However, I can think a reasonable “ What if” for CF-105 to barely survive after the 1960.

Instead of being a fast Tu-95 killer, I believe its design can be evolved into an all weather long range , high speed ( Mach 2 class ) , high altitude reconnaissance aircraft with black paint job for spying the Soviet airspace. It stood between U-2 Dragon Lady and SR-71 Blackbird. Also similar to the transition between Yak-25 and Yak-25RV.

The wings and the aircraft structure would be further redesigned and enhanced. The powerful Orenda Iroquois would also be modified in order to get used to the higher altitude environment for the U-2 and SR-71 type reconnaissance flight. The pilot would wear the astronaut style suit instead.

The original F-102 “ pyramid head “ style canopy and F-4 style air intake designs would be replaced by another new and different designs in F-105D Thunderchief style for better vision and flight performance. RCAF had a plan to purchase both Arrows and Orenda Iroquois powered Thunderchiefs ( AP-63-19E ) for replacing all the older and outdated subsonic fighter jets like F-86 and CF-100, and I would choose to let the Thuds to take the multiple roles of all weather interceptor, nuclear bomber, ground attacker and low altitude reconnaissance aircraft in RCAF, so it might made the maintenance job easier as well as help beautifying the air fleet’s image.

Due to Canada’s limited resources and global influence, I believe 15 Avro Arrow reconnaissance variant aircrafts and 3 trainer variant aircrafts were good enough for the early 1960s RCAF. But after the 1964, a further numbers of new CF-105 EW variant would be introduced into the air force too.

For the project of Velvet Glove air to air missile and its related SARH system to survive in the same “What if” story,
it need to be separate from the Avro Arrow project , evolve into a short range surface to air missile with structural enhancement in AIM-7 Sparrow style and became one of the world’s first mobile SAM system by fusing with a lengthen, modified XA-20 APC chassis ( Around 50 km/h in road speed ). Due to the restriction in technology and theory at its time, a Self-propelled launch vehicle variant arming with 4 missiles and a separated Semi-active radar station vehicle variant using a data link ( through a more efficient design of either British or American origin ) were created. These new rear engined tracked SAM vehicles would be operated by the Canadian Army and most of them would be deployed in West Germany, along with a bit higher potential to export to other NATO and anti-communist allies for new military market opportunity.

That’s all for my almost realistic “ What if ”

If you are interested in my alternate Avro Arrow science fiction fantasy, feel free to help further enhancing the topic.

If you don’t like my text post, please forgive me and forget about it for me!

Have a nice day!
 
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Instead of being a fast Tu-95 killer, I believe its design can be evolved into an all weather long range , high speed ( Mach 2 class ) , high altitude reconnaissance aircraft with black paint job for spying the Soviet airspace. It stood between U-2 Dragon Lady and SR-71 Blackbird. Also similar to the transition between Yak-25 and Yak-25RV.

The wings and the aircraft structure would be further redesigned and enhanced. The powerful Orenda Iroquois would also be modified in order to get used to the higher altitude environment for the U-2 and SR-71 type reconnaissance flight. The pilot would wear the astronaut style suit instead.
Latching on to the words "The pilot", given the era and its associated technology, would that mission be best accomplished by having 1 crew like the U-2 or 2 crew like the SR-71?
 
Latching on to the words "The pilot", given the era and its associated technology, would that mission be best accomplished by having 1 crew like the U-2 or 2 crew like the SR-71?
2 crew setting similar to SR-71A / RF-4C style

The Avro Arrow Prototype was originally designed to be operated by 2 crews.

Also, the automatic computer technology was not as advanced and reliable as today ( 2025 ), so a secondary human crew was necessary for the flight operations.
 
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'There were already several better and more versatile competitors like Mcdonell F-4 Phantom II as well as the rapid development in ICBM technology at its time, so it was getting more difficult to gain governmental approval for official RCAF service and mass production. Moreover, its prototypes never armed with guns."

OK, first=The Phantom was a contemporary of the Arrow, in fact they first flew within a couple months of each other. However, when the Arrow was cancelled the Phantom was in early stages of development and was being developed as a Navy carrier fighter. The USAF did not get involved until 1962, a good three years after the Arrow was cancelled. ICBMS were still in early development and were delicate high maintenance prototypes that took several hours to prep for launch. There was no certainty at the time they would be practical. So, these would not be considered viable alternatives 1958-59
 
I really don't think this scenario does what it sets out to do, it's really quite problematic. Like, on a fundamental level this doesn't change the problem of other planes doing the same thing but cheaper - the USAF built 652 RF-4s, which is the closest match to this hypothetical RCF-105, along with the RA-5.

As for more specific issues...

The original F-102 “ pyramid head “ style canopy and F-4 style air intake designs would be replaced by another new and different designs in F-105D Thunderchief style for better vision and flight performance. RCAF had a plan to purchase both Arrows and Orenda Iroquois powered Thunderchiefs ( AP-63-19E ) for replacing all the older and outdated subsonic fighter jets like F-86 and CF-100, and I would choose to let the Thuds to take the multiple roles of all weather interceptor, nuclear bomber, ground attacker and low altitude reconnaissance aircraft in RCAF, so it might made the maintenance job easier as well as help beautifying the air fleet’s image.
One, you're not getting better flight performance out of F-105 intakes. The intakes had measures to manage supersonic airflow, but nonetheless the variable-geometry rectangular inlets of the Phantom are more sophisticated and also more effective at supersonic speeds.

Second, the Thud plan isn't viable. Nuclear bombing and ground attack was already being taken up by the F-104G, and the Thud doesn't make for an especially good interceptor, not without extensive and expensive modification.

Due to Canada’s limited resources and global influence, I believe 15 Avro Arrow reconnaissance variant aircrafts and 3 trainer variant aircrafts were good enough for the early 1960s RCAF. But after the 1964, a further numbers of new CF-105 EW variant would be introduced into the air force too.
18 Arrows is a horrendously bad return on investment for the amount of development money involved.
 
One, you're not getting better flight performance out of F-105 intakes. The intakes had measures to manage supersonic airflow, but nonetheless the variable-geometry rectangular inlets of the Phantom are more sophisticated and also more effective at supersonic speeds.
Actually, the new air intake style I was talking about was from this picture which was part of the classified Avro Arrow project document below ( uploaded by hesham )


These new air intake shapes really resembled to the one on F-105D Thud and XF-8U-3 Crusader III .

I will discuss with you for everything later.

Good night!
 
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I think the CF-105 could fit the F-4 Phantom II role and also as fast Interceptor
were the co pilot operate the Radar and Rockets system.

also as reconnaissance aircraft were weapons system are replace by sensors and cameras
 
Instead of being a fast Tu-95 killer, I believe its design can be evolved into an all weather long range , high speed ( Mach 2 class ) , high altitude reconnaissance aircraft with black paint job for spying the Soviet airspace. It stood between U-2 Dragon Lady and SR-71 Blackbird. Also similar to the transition between Yak-25 and Yak-25RV.
Problem is, than neither U-2 nor SR-71 were actually capable of invading Soviet airspace starting from 1960s. The risk from Soviet high-speed interceptos and long-range SAM's was just too great. So the Recon Arrow would face the problem of being a plane with no clear purpose. I suppose it could still be useful over China, for example, but I kinda doubt Canada would be much interested in China.

Due to Canada’s limited resources and global influence, I believe 15 Avro Arrow reconnaissance variant aircrafts and 3 trainer variant aircrafts were good enough for the early 1960s RCAF. But after the 1964, a further numbers of new CF-105 EW variant would be introduced into the air force too.
And what exactly Canada would do with them? Considering that almost 1.1 billion was already spent on the program (and developing a recon aircraft would clearly cost even more), the cost per unit would be about 80-85 millions - in 1950s dollars. It's almost three times greater than SR-71 or eight times greater than U-2.

For the project of Velvet Glove air to air missile and its related SARH system to survive in the same “What if” story,
it need to be separate from the Avro Arrow project , evolve into a short range surface to air missile with structural enhancement in AIM-7 Sparrow style and became one of the world’s first mobile SAM system by fusing with a lengthen, modified XA-20 APC chassis ( Around 50 km/h in road speed ). Due to the restriction in technology and theory at its time, a Self-propelled launch vehicle variant arming with 4 missiles and a separated Semi-active radar station vehicle variant using a data link ( through a more efficient design of either British or American origin ) were created. These new rear engined tracked SAM vehicles would be operated by the Canadian Army and most of them would be deployed in West Germany, along with a bit higher potential to export to other NATO and anti-communist allies for new military market opportunity.
It would require solving a rather complex problem of radar reflections from the ground/trees/terrain during low-altitude interceptions. The mobile SAM could not enjoy the advantage of always-prepared position, and protection of troops in movement required the capability of intercepting low-altitude targets. While the radar station could manage to dealt with ground clutter, the missile seeker (especially the rather compact one) could not. If I recall correctly, no one managed to solve this problem satisfactory in 1950-1960s; almost everyone used a command guidance.
 
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What needed to happen was to have an operational type smack the boffins upside the head with "5nmi range missile? You mean this missile has the same effective range as a Falcon?!?"

And then step the Arrow's planned missiles from Sparrow size to Eagle/Phoenix size. Yes, 1000-1500lbs of Active Radar Homing, 100nmi range, Mach 6 missile. Stretch the Arrow's size to carrying 4-6 of those and maybe a pair of sidewinders for leakers, call it 6500lbs of weapons. I believe the Iroquois engines had the development room to accomplish this.

Because Canada does need a long range interceptor to enforce the claims in the Arctic. Still does, actually, but that's a discussion for a separate thread.
 
What needed to happen was to have an operational type smack the boffins upside the head with "5nmi range missile? You mean this missile has the same effective range as a Falcon?!?"
At this moment just using the Falcon would become a quite attractive proposition) At least it compact, and weapon bays of Avro Arrow could carry a lot of GAR's.
 
At this moment just using the Falcon would become a quite attractive proposition) At least it compact, and weapon bays of Avro Arrow could carry a lot of GAR's.
True, but it'd be really good to have another country working on big ARH AAMs to compete with Eagle and then Falcon/Phoenix.

Separating the ARH Sparrows from the rest of the program would help tremendously overall.

Plus I'm sure the Canadians would want to borrow some bits from the Missileer, mostly the big radar/FCS that became AWG-9, and then make it talk to the US SAGE ground-controlled intercept system.
 
Yes, but A - the problem likely was unsurmountable for 1950-1960s tech, and B - Canada is not exactly the good choice due to very limited experience.
The US had working ARH missiles in the 1950s and 1960s, they were just really big. Absolutely not Sparrow sized weapons, they were 10-12" diameter, 1000-1500lb monstrosities, with more weight in rocket fuel than the base weight of a Sparrow missile.

And Canada did have good electronics engineers. They just chose a poor windmill to tilt at.
 
What killed the Arrow was the back and forth related to the F-106 MA-1. 1952 to early 1956 that was the plan, then it was dropped for the pie-in-the-sky ASTRA-1 & Sparrow II : before returning in September 1958 : too late !
The Arrow airframe and engines were working well, and had no cost overruns. It was the radar and missiles that sunk the CF-105. So - just pick the F-106 MA-1 and Falcons and never change. Cherry on the cake, commonality helps with integration in NORAD: not the same plane, sure, but similar radar and missiles.
 
What killed the Arrow was the back and forth related to the F-106 MA-1. 1952 to early 1956 that was the plan, then it was dropped for the pie-in-the-sky ASTRA-1 & Sparrow II : before returning in September 1958 : too late !
The Arrow airframe and engines were working well, and had no cost overruns. It was the radar and missiles that sunk the CF-105. So - just pick the F-106 MA-1 and Falcons and never change. Cherry on the cake, commonality helps with integration in NORAD: not the same plane, sure, but similar radar and missiles.
Nah, if you've got the space in the nose for a 40" dish antenna, go ahead and overboost the radar signals going out for lots of range.

But keep the MA1 back-end.
 
Second, the Thud plan isn't viable. Nuclear bombing and ground attack was already being taken up by the F-104G, and the Thud doesn't make for an especially good interceptor, not without extensive and expensive modification.

RCAF adopted F-104G ( CF-104 ) in the original 1960s timeline, so I am a little bit bored and would like to experience something new. I also understand that starfighter and super tiger were better than thunderchief in overall performance, but the hypothetical concept of Orenda Iroquois powered F-105D in RCAF service was really interesting to me.
18 Arrows is a horrendously bad return on investment for the amount of development money involved.

Well, too bad for Avro Canada then.

I have tried my best.

I think that the original Avro Arrow project itself was a bit too ambitious and unrealistic.

Let us hope that no aircraft manufacturer, especially the smaller and younger one, will repeat their expensive mistake in the future!
 
The Arrow airframe and engines were working well, and had no cost overruns. It was the radar and missiles that sunk the CF-105. So - just pick the F-106 MA-1 and Falcons and never change.

It seems to be a better decision than mine and I hope that Avro Arrow would eventually survive after the 1960s and prove its worth in your alternate timeline.

So would it be better and more practical if we switch Avro Arrow’s original “ Pyramid Head “ canopy into more conservative design like the one in Starfighter or Thunderchief for better vision?
 
A long time ago I put a Tomcat canopy on the Hobbycrap... pardon, Hobbycraft 1/72 scale Arrow. Fit like a glove !
I have multiple alt-histories related to the CF-105, most of them doing something for that radar and missile.

Option 1 The F-106 MA-1 and Falcons.

Option 2 Canadian Westinghouse licence-build APQ-50 / APQ-64 / APQ-72, with Sparrow II (ARH) or Sparrow III (SARH) - Skylancer & Phantom.

Option 3, the craziest one: the F-108 / YF-12 huge radar and missiles: AN/ASG-18 and AIM-47 Falcons. There, the Arrow replaces the B-58 "Snoopy" testbed that bridged the gap between F-108 cancellation in 1959 and the YF-12 in 1963. The end result is by far the most powerful fighter in the western world... and by 1964-67 the MiG-25 is coming.
 
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No problem with that. Although MA-1 development seems to have been... troubled, to say the least.
Sure, but it means you have a SAGE-compatible radar from the start.



I have multiple alt-histories related to the CF-105, most of them doing something for that radar and missile.

Option 1 The F-106 MA-1 and Falcons.

Option 2 Canadian Westinghouse licence-build APQ-50 / APQ-64 / APQ-72, with Sparrow II (ARH) or Sparrow III (SARH) - Skylancer & Phantom.

Option 3, the craziest one: the F-108 / YF-12 huge radar and missiles: AN/ASG-18 and AIM-47 Falcons. There, the Arrow replaces the B-58 "Snoopy" testbed that bridged the gap between F-108 cancellation in 1959 and the YF-12 in 1963. The end result is by far the most powerful fighter in the western world... and by 1964-67 the MiG-25 is coming.
The big issue with option 2 is that it's Navy and so doesn't talk to SAGE and NORAD. (ignoring that ARH Sparrow II was never going to be effective due to seeker range issues) The CF-101 Voodoos did.

If the Arrow can physically fit the ASG-18 radar, that would have my vote.
 
As so often in Alt History the Phantom remains the answer.
Canada came close to ordering and licence building Phantoms. Having these as a single type (instead of F101 F104 and F5) would have made Canada a much more effective force in the 60s and 70s.
Canadair built F4s would then have been ordered by the RAF and possibly even Germany.
The Arrow like the SR177 was about five years too late. Had they flown by 1955 and entered service in 1957 they might have served as long as the F101 and F102.
An Arrow force equipped with the same weapons as the F102/F106 seems the way to get Canada its own long range interceptor The F106 served the USAF into the 80s.
 
Of course the Phantom is the answer. See that APQ-72 and Sparrow III I mentionned ? Navy F-4B. Then the next was APQ-100 for USAF F-4C.

So the Arrow radar and missile follow Phantom development, which drastically slash weapon system costs well into the 1960's and beyond.
 
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Option 1 The F-106 MA-1 and Falcons.
I will choose Archibald’s Option 1 plan with MA-1 and Falcons and here is my 1960s RCAF fleet in my modified Avro Arrow alternate timeline route below:

Avro Arrow Mk.3 CF-105A ( StraGen ATL Interceptor Type )

Crews : 2

Role : All Weather High Altitude Supersonic Interceptor

Manufacturer : Avro Canada

First Flight : 1955 ( Mk.1 )

Commissioned : 1958 ( RCAF )

Engines : 2 x Orenda Iroquois ( High Altitude Type )

Speed : Not exceeding Mach 2.5

Equipments :

- MA-1 Radar ( SAGE )

- AIM-4 Falcon Short Range AA Missile

- AIR-2A Genie Short Range AA Rocket ( Nuclear Warhead )

- F-105D Thunderchief style Canopy

- Midair Refueling Probe And Drogue System

- External Fuel Tanks

( I originally wanted to add the internal aerial gun under the radar nose of the modified Avro Arrow for backup plan, but the MA-1 Radar seemed to be too large and took most of the space in the radar nose, so I gave up and let it be a sole missile armed interceptor like CF-101B Voodoo )

Variants :

Avro Arrow Mk.1/ Mk.2 ( Prototype ) , CF-105A ( EW ) ( Electronic Warfare Type ) , CF-105B ( Trainer Type ) , CF-105C ( Upgraded , Internal M61A1 gun armed Export Multirole Fighter Type , with the overall appearance and performance closer to Archibald’s beautifully upgraded Iranian CF-105 variant figure with F-14 Tomcat Canopy )


Replacing the following OTL counterparts :

CF-101B Voodoo Interceptor , CIM-10 Bomarc Nuclear Armed Long Range SAM

Republic / Canadair Thunderchief CF-111D ( F-105D ) ( StraGen ATL Fighter Bomber Type )

Crews : 1 ( D Type ) / 2 ( F / G / H Types )

Role : All Weather Low Altitude Supersonic Nuclear Armed Fighter Bomber And Ground Attack Aircraft

Manufacturers : Republic Aviation ( Original ) ,
Canadair ( Initially Produced In License , But Eventually Bought The Full Production Authorization From Republic Since 1963 )

( The OTL bankruptcy of Republic Aviation and its fateful defunct by the hand of Fairchild Aircraft in 1965 were still existed in my ATL, but not before they sold their own full production authorization of the Thud and its related materials and papers, including the classified documents of the unbuilt , next generation F-105H variant , to the already Thud addicted Canadair in 1963 , so the production of the Canadian and American Thuds and their related components still continued in the Montreal factory and more Vietnam War money from USAF eventually ran into Canadair’s pockets )

First Flight : 1960 ( AP-63-19E )

Commissioned : 1961 ( RCAF )

Engines : 1 x Orenda Iroquois ( High / Low Altitude Type )

Speed : Around Mach 2.2

Equipments :

- R-14A Radar

- AN/ASG-19 Thunderstick Bombing / Navigation System

- AN/APN-131 Doppler Navigation Radar

- External Rocket Pods with FFARs

- 1 x 20 mm M61 6-Barrelled Vulcan Cannon

- AIM-9 Sidewinder Short Range AA Missile

- AGM-12 Bullpup Short Range AS Missile

- Nuclear Bomb B28 or B43

- Mark 82 Unguided Bomb ( Early Version )

- Midair Refueling Probe And Drogue System

- External Fuel Tanks

Variants :

CF-111A ( AP-63-19E , F-105D Prototype With Modified Orenda Iroquois Engine ) , CF-111D ( R ) ( Canadian RF-105D , Low Altitude Reconnaissance Type ) , CF-111F ( F-105F , Two-Seat Trainer Type ) , CF-111G ( F-105G , Two-Seat Wild Weasel Type ) , CF-111H ( F-105H , Upgraded Domestic / Export Two-Seat Multirole Fighter Type )

Replacing the following OTL counterparts :

CF-104G Starfighter Fighter Bomber ( Replaced By CF-111D ) , CF-116A ( CF-5A , Canadian F-5A ) Freedom Fighter Ground Attack Aircraft ( Replaced By CF-111H )

CT-114 Tutor still existed and used Orenda licensed built J85 engine in my ATL.
However, with the Thud took over the place of Starfighter in RCAF and the change of the role model, its eventual appearance was different than its OTL counterpart. Its original CF-104 style T-tail was replaced by the taller and more conventional tail in F-105D Thud style along with a pair of F-84G Thunderjet style straight wings and horizontal stabilizers.

Like the more reasonable objections towards my previous hypothetical “ Velvet Glove / XA-20 tracked SAM vehicle “ proposal , Canadair eventually realized that the development of the Velvet Glove AAM and its Semi-active radar had nowhere to go, so they decided to cancel the project and donated some of the related materials to some local technological universities for the purposes of education and research while giving more space for the more suitable combo of American AIM-4 Falcon and MA-1 Radar to enter the Avro Arrow Project in my ATL.

That’s all for my modified Avro Arrow ATL!

Have a nice day!
 
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( I originally wanted to add the internal aerial gun under the radar nose of the modified Avro Arrow for backup plan, but the MA-1 Radar seemed to be too large and took most of the space in the radar nose, so I gave up and let it be a sole missile armed interceptor like CF-101B Voodoo )
That's probably acceptable, considering that Navy Phantoms never did get a gun and neither F-102 nor F-106 were designed with a gun.
 
- AIM-4 Falcon Short Range AA Missile

- AIR-2A Genie Short Range AA Rocket ( Nuclear Warhead )
What kind of launch system would you use? Falcon was mainly intended for internal storage, with missile seeker being fed tracking data from plane sensors, and thus being locked on target while inside the weapon bay; the launch procedure was fast.

Personally, I would suggest the updated F-105 configuration; three narrow ventral weapon bays, with central one reserved for Genie (or AIM-26 Super Falcon), and the side ones carrying a pair of AIM-4F (SARH) and AIM-4H (IR) Falcon's.
 

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