Avro Atlantic

[The Wooksta!]

Okay, hardly secret although lesser known would more fit the bill.

Does anyone have a three view drawing of this projected airliner variation on the Vulcan? I have some bits and bobs scabbed off the interweb - including a seating plan! - but no three views.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Ta!

 

[TinWing]

I am assuming that this is the site where you found the seating plans:

http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~jnoakes/ram/atlantic.html

 

[lark]

There's an excellent 3-view in an earlier Air Enthusiast Quarterly.
I send more details this evening.

 

[Jemiba]

I'm deeply shocked ! I was absolutely shure, that there is at least one 3-view
in Paynes "Stuck on the drawing board", but there isn't, just an artist's impression,
I must apologize.
lark, now it's on you ... !

 

[lark]

Here is the info.

Avro 722 Atlantic : Air Enthusiast No.19 August-November 1982
page 25.
Another early Avro jetliner project was the Avro type 693 - September 1946-to Brabazon Spec.Type 3.
Air Enthusiast No.26,page 76

 

[hesham]

also I hear that,Avro-722 Atantic,Vickers VC-5 and Handley Page HP.111 were the British rivals aircraft
to American Boeing model-707.

 

[PMN1]

How would a delta wing airliner compare in performance to the traditionally shaped airliner?

 

[PMN1]

Some info on the Avro Atlantic

http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~jnoakes/ram/atlantic.html

The Handley Page HP97

http://www.handleypage.com/Aircraft_hp97.html

and some information on the various V-bomber derivatives

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread212956/pg1

The figures compared to the B707 are intresting, though not sure what version of the 707.

 

[flateric]

Here it goes from Air Enthusiast 19 article 'The Vulcan...(Almost) A Valediction.'

 

[Akaikaze]

Oooooo....I like. This would have saved a lot of work on Concorde.

 

[Jemiba]

But with the wing of the Vulcan, it probably would have remained
subsonic ...

 

[Skybolt]

Absolutely subsoninc... look at the leading edge for start...

 

[Akaikaze]

Subsonic, but excellent for learning low-speed handling of tailless deltas and just general flight handling of such a machine in a commercial environment, anyway. Concorde went straight for the throat and took some time to master. This would have be perfect for a stepped approach, up to the transonic area. Concorde and 'Charger' were the first, and so far, only tailless commercial transports to date. And they are widely see as expensive because they jumped too far. Avro's design fits right in the middle. Standard jet performance with a radical layout.

 

[Kim Margosein]

I don't think it mattered at the time, but the engine in the wing design the British preferred would seem to doom the airframe when the high bypass turbofans came to be. Also, wouldn't those thick wings mean for a lower speed?

IIRC, even though the VC.7 prototype was well along, wasn't the design full of too many military features that would lead to poor civil economics?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hawker-Siddeley-Aircraft-Engines-brochure-1950-s_W0QQitemZ110099217507QQihZ001QQcategoryZ40051QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This brochure has an artist's impression of the Avro Atlantic in. Wonder if its the same one as posted above?

 

[elmayerle]

we'll hopefully see, I'm bidding on it.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hmmm

Seems wrong for you to bid on it, Evan, for postage reasons if nothing else!

;D
Paul.

 

[kitnut617]

Here it goes from Air Enthusiast 19 article 'The Vulcan...(Almost) A Valediction.'

I have a few pictures and 3-views of the Atlantic as I have a build project going for one of these. I have been in contact with a fellow who's name is Mike Meehan, he used to work in the Avro design office, and he sent me them, one of them shows the engines at mid span with the u/c between the engines and fuselage and has a distinct Comet forward fuselage look to it, where as the later drawings show something like a Boeing nose. Mike told me that had it gone into production (the RAF was very interested in it at the time as a tanker/transport) it would most probably have had the Vulcan B.1 wing which had the small kinked leading edge to it. There is also a very large model of this aircraft in the Avro Heritage Center, Woodford.

Robert

 

[elmayerle]

Seems wrong for you to bid on it, Evan, for postage reasons if nothing else!

*shrug* No worse than other such documentation I've bought from the UK in this manner. *grin* Where do you think I got that brochure for the FAA version of the AV-8B+?

 

[Weaver]

Why to spend money in a development from zero if military designs can adapt?

...

Derived of V bombers:

...

Avro Atlantic (they observe the disposition of the seats looking toward stern to the military style)

(Sources: Mecánica Popular edición argentina septiembre 1963; B-36 in action by M.K. Jacobsen and Ray Wagner ; "El mundo de la aviación" Planeta de Agosttini p. 1820)

Just for the record, that model still exists in the heritage centre here at Woodford.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Oooh, Woodford.

Don't suppose there's a way to take some photos of the Avro unbuilt models on display there? I think there's a 739 there, maybe a 720 or 726 as well? Seems no cameras are allowed on site, which seems pretty sad....

 

[Weaver]

Oooh, Woodford.

Don't suppose there's a way to take some photos of the Avro unbuilt models on display there? I think there's a 739 there, maybe a 720 or 726 as well? Seems no cameras are allowed on site, which seems pretty sad....

LOL - I knew that question was coming....... ;D

Problems:

1. The heritage centre guys only come in and open it up on a Thursday (last time I looked),

2. When they're usually in, I'm usually busy with work,

3. You're right about the cameras. However, I know the security guys and they know me, so it's worth asking if we can come to some arrangement. There ARE cameras seen on the shop floor from time to time, so some procedure must exist.......

I'll see what I can do, but don't hold your breath........

 

[Weaver]

Update - I may indeed be able to organise a photo session shortly. Not sure when, but soon.

 

[Weaver]

As promised on another thread, I've just taken a slew of photos of the Atlantic model in the heritage centre at Woodford. Probably be posted tonight.

 

[zen]

Atlantic as a tanker?.....now theres a thought!

But perhaps theres some logic to that idea, as their fast and we know from later on have a smoother airflow at the back compared with the VC10.

Did we miss a trick?
After all this is damn near a 50's sonic cruiser type, and massively cheaper to operate for transatlantic flights.

Spey seems an odd option for engines, surely they meant the Medway?

 

[Weaver]

Taking photos proved a bit problematic as they'd moved the room around to do some maintainance and the Atlantic model was buried right at the back. Hope these are okay:

Rahter than post them all up, you can see the detail ones on my photobucket album:

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/Avro%20Atlantic/

Before somebody asks, I didn't photograph the underside because it's absolutely featureless: no indication of the gear layout!

Many thanks to the Woodford Heritage centre guys who were very helpful indeed.

 

[Triton]

Avro Atlantic interior cabin configurations. The basic version (top) carriers 94 passengers five abreast, the center drawing shows the 76-seat luxury version, the 113-seat tourist version is shown below. All three cabin configurations have bar, lounge, toilets, and galley.

Sources:
http://www.chat.carleton.ca/~jnoakes/ram/atlantic.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1953/1953%20-%200767.html

 

[Triton]

Artist's impression of Avro Atlantic.

Source: http://media.photobucket.com/image/Avro%20Atlantic/WtMiller/6954346b.jpg

 

[Triton]

Artist's impression of Avro Atlantic.

Source: http://www.nevilshute.org/PhotoLine/PLD-1951-1960/Graphics/avroatlantic.jpg

 

[Stargazer]

From FlyPast, July 1986:

« AIRLIFE has an enviably consistent eye for good works. Their latest is splendid, dealing with a giant in the realms of aircraft design. Harold Penrose has penned Architect of Wings (250 pages, hardback, £14.95), a biography of Roy Chadwick, who will be forever linked with Avro and, of course, his masterpiece among masterpieces, the Lancaster.

Chadwick was killed in his Tudor II airliner in 1947, but even then had penned the sketches that were to give birth to the Vulcan — successor to his line of Avro 'heavies'. Penrose has put together a classic study, which takes much of the Avro background and is rich in personalities and atmospheric illustrations.

Totally readable, this is a worthy monument to someone to whom the label genius is almost insufficient a summary. »

 

[Grey Havoc]

BOAC were idiots (at best) but what else was new.

 

[circle-5]

BOAC were idiots (at best) but what else was new.

BOAC: Boys Overseas Avoiding Conscription (a 1943 newspaper headline, I believe).

 

[Spark]

Hi,
The V1000 could have had a common military/civil upgrade. overall should have been the cheapest most economical choice.
One assumes that all three V-Bomber derived military transport variants would have had transport/tanker, Radio warfare variants. It was a dictum of the Air Staff that in the support role they should be capable of flying at the same speed and altitude as the V-Bomber force.
The best/RAF choice based on performance was the Handley Page development of the B.35/46 Victor.
The HP 80 could land itself, the Victor could not; would this have been the case for the HP97 and how easier aircraft would the Atlantic to take-off and land?
BOAC choice was the Vickers aircraft, the V1000.
I suspect that Avro aircraft was the first jet transport scheme upgraded with wider fuselage and six aside seating.
It was to have been the case that all second generation UK jet transports, civil and military were for safety issues to have had rear facing seating.
With American objections and the termination of the V1000 layout reverted to the less safe forward facing practice.
In the case of the Atlantic how were they going to load jeeps and other required light freight?

I don't think it mattered at the time, but the engine in the wing design the British preferred would seem to doom the airframe when the high bypass turbofans came to be. Also, wouldn't those thick wings mean for a lower speed?

IIRC, even though the VC.7 prototype was well along, wasn't the design full of too many military features that would lead to poor civil economics?

 

[Stargazer]

Yet another photo of the cutaway desktop model, from an old split-up topic:

[quote author=Dronte]Why to spend money in a development from zero if military designs can adapt?

Avro Atlantic (they observe the disposition of the seats looking toward stern to the military style)
[/quote]

 

[Stargazer]

The charm of vintage 1950s company brochures is indescribable... Here is the Avro brochure for the Atlantic, which sold for 150 bucks on eBay some time ago to a very lucky buyer.

 

[Stargazer]

More pics of the same:

 

[kitnut617]

My build is getting there --- just taking a while though

 

[royabulgaf]

Do you have a build article anywhere?

 

[kitnut617]

Yes I do, but it's on the 'What-If' Forum ---

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,27077.0/highlight,atlantic.html

Unfortunately it hasn't progressed much more than in the thread, got really busy with work, then I wandered off on a couple of other projects. Soon as I get those cleared off the work-bench, I intend to get back to it as I have an extension to the build, a wide boby version.

 

[royabulgaf]

I knew I saw it around somewhere, Kitnut. I'm not ready to sacrifice a B-36 yet. However, 2" PVC tube may just be the ticket, with some C-135 parts cut up for the front and rear. I have a C-135 fuselage floating around from a Boeing 720 conversion.