Austro-Hungarian WW I Projects and Prototypes

[Stargazer]

Not to mention the Lloyd battle plane...

Speaking of which...

 

[theponja]

The Lloyd is one of the best examples to describe the opposite to: "graceful". Anyway Could be a fantastic subject for modelling.


and "Always The truth is stranger than fiction." , poor Dick Dastardly their designs never reached the level of Lloyd to capture the pigeon.

 

[Stargazer]

poor Dick Dastardly their designs never reached the level of Lloyd to capture the pigeon.

 

[Jemiba]

Some links about the Lloyd 40.08
http://www.wwiaviation.com/Lloyd.html
http://wwiaviation.blogspot.de/2011/06/austria-1917-lloyd-4008-luftkreuzer.html
http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/knights-of-the-air-made-in

and two remarks : it was called a "Luftkreuzer" (flying cruiser), which suggests, that it was
intended for somewhat different tasks, than just those of a bomber. The emphasis on a superior
field of fire and addition of an "illuminator" (to my opinion a searchlight and an operator) to my
opinion shows, that it was meant as a kind of multi-place fighter, maybe to fight itself through
strong fighter defences without the need for escorts.

And the other remark, just to prevent misunderstandings: Despite the seemingly obvious markings,
it was an Austrian aircraft, not a German one !

 

[dan_inbox]

Despite the seemingly obvious markings, it was an Austrian aircraft, not a German one !

Indeed. To be even more specific, it was was from the Hungarian part of the Austro-Hungarian empire: the company was Magyar Lloyd Repülogép és motorgyár Részvény-Társaság (Hungarian Lloyd Aircraft and Motor Works).

 

[Stargazer]

Almost split the topic, but then wondered whether it would be appropriate to simply rename it as "German and Austro-Hungarian WWI bombers"... Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Jemiba]

Perhaps it we should split the posts about the Lloyd 40.08 into an "Austro-Hungarian WW I projects" thread ?
There probably were much less, than German projects, but we would keep the Austrian ad Hungarian
identity.

 

[Stargazer]

Perhaps it we should split the posts about the Lloyd 40.08 into an "Austro-Hungarian WW I projects" thread ?
There probably were much less, than German projects, but we would keep the Austrian ad Hungarian
identity.

I thought so too... but didn't all these machines fly in German colors, anyway? (I'm no expert of the First World War, sorry!)

 

[Jemiba]

Ok, let's start this thread for projects and prototypes from Aviatik, Lohner, Lloyd, Ufag, Phönix,
Gutman, Ungarische Flugzeugwerke and probably still some other companies involved in supplying
aircraft to the k.u.k. Luftfahrttruppen.
Just did a quick Google search and was surprised by the number, as must admit !

 

[theponja]

poor Dick Dastardly their designs never reached the level of Lloyd to capture the pigeon.

Stéphane That was fast and very funny!!!

What I don't understand is why the German Bomber post is closed. Avoiding more mistakes? :-\

 

[Stargazer]

What I don't understand is why the German Bomber post is closed. Avoiding more mistakes? :-\

Poor Jemiba must have been overworked... absent-mindedness on his part I guess.

I've reopened the topic!

 

[Jemiba]

Sorry, my bad ! :-[
I've merged an older thread with just two posts as a second thought, after locking it at first. Well, something went wrong .....
And no, weren't too much New Years Eve drinks then !

 

[Avimimus]

And the other remark, just to prevent misunderstandings: Despite the seemingly obvious markings,
it was an Austrian aircraft, not a German one !

Interestingly - I've noticed that one of the images with the Iron Crosses has another version circulating (flipped, without markings).

So, I'm wondering if this is the original (and all of the others were retouched)?

 

[Avimimus]

By the way, I tried mocking this up in X-plane - and I was surprised by my ability to take-off (so long as you aren't using a grass strip...) and fly on the first attempt. So, the overall design might not be as mad as it looks.

It is really difficult to make sense of given the limited of documentation. Apparently the pilot sat in the worst place possible, and there are pretty good figures for the wing layout (although not things like stagger or dihedral).

 

[Tonton-42]

poor Dick Dastardly their designs never reached the level of Lloyd to capture the pigeon.

;D ;D ;D

Tonton

 

[theponja]

By the way, I tried mocking this up in X-plane - and I was surprised by my ability to take-off (so long as you aren't using a grass strip...) and fly on the first attempt. So, the overall design might not be as mad as it looks.

It is really difficult to make sense of given the limited of documentation. Apparently the pilot sat in the worst place possible, and there are pretty good figures for the wing layout (although not things like stagger or dihedral).

I'love to see your creation. Do you've some pictures online?

 

[theponja]

poor Dick Dastardly their designs never reached the level of Lloyd to capture the pigeon.

;D ;D ;D

Tonton

;D ;D ;D lol!

 

[Avimimus]

Quick question for people with better knowledge (and sharper eyes) than me:

Any rough guesses as to the airfoil shape that this plane would have had? It seems to be pretty thin (but still reasonable camber, with a concave bottom) - it kindof reminds me of the Pfalz D.XII

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Tuizentfloot,


and also for Daimler,I know Daimler-Lohner Pfeilflieger biplane of 1910 and Daimler
No.3 monoplane of 1913,what about No.1 & No.2 ?.

 

[Tuizentfloot]

Dear hesham, your question puzzles me since Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft began building aeroplanes only in 1915...
Were it possibly Lohner types?

 

[hesham]

My dear Tuizentfloot,


here is the source for Lohner-Daimler aircraft,but was that anther Daimler company built aircraft
in Germany ?,I know one in UK,but in anther site,Daimler No.3 was a monoplane actually built,
but I can remember its name and I searched about it,but I could't find it.


https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34815/34815-h/34815-h.htm

 

[Jemiba]

The mention of Daimler in the name to my opinion was made to emphasize
the choice of engine. A line below it is said, that Lohner was merged with
Etrich back then.

 

[Tuizentfloot]

I agree with Jemiba. In those days a lot of aeroplane builders didn't use proper designations, and aeroplanes were often designated with the name of the builder and the engine. In this case Lohner and (Austro-)Daimler.
Before WW1 Lohner built a number of Taube types, and a number of biplane Pfeilflieger variants, both mostly with Austro-Daimler engines.
The Pfeilflieger illustrated seems to me the so-called Lohner Pfeilflieger Aspern of 1912, which afterwards received the military registration 10.06.
I will make a list of the Lohner aeroplanes till 1923, but would you please just be patient?

 

[hesham]

The mention of Daimler in the name to my opinion was made to emphasize
the choice of engine. A line below it is said, that Lohner was merged with
Etrich back then.

Yes my dear Jemiba,


and we can called it Austro-Daimler.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I know all or most Lloyd aircraft and Project series,from Type-40 up to Type-49,except
Type 45.01,who know it ?.

 

[Tuizentfloot]

Series 45. was reserved for the production version of the 40.05, the Lloyd FJ. An order for 16 was placed in December 1916, but cancelled in February 1917. If built in series they would probably have become the Lloyd D I.

 

[hesham]

Many thanks my dear Tuizentfloot.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

there are some mysteries for Phönix company,such as C.II,D.IV and L.2c,who know
those airplanes ?.

 

[Tuizentfloot]

My dear hesham, again a mix of two (or three, including a German one) companies called Phoenix…

1. The Austrian WWI company Phoenix-Flugzeugwerke AG in Wien-Stadlau, created in March 1917 as part of the Castiglioni concern.

Phoenix D IV: The two 1918 prototypes 20.24 and 20.25, evolved from the earlier Phoenix D types. After successful tests two further prototypes were ordered but not completed before the end of the war.

Phoenix C II: I never heard of this designation, but this could eventually be the hypothetical designation had the 1918 prototypes 20.19 and 20.21 (the so-called Type 10) been ordered in series. Just a guess of mine, I don’t know for sure…

2. The very small German company Phönix-Flugzeugbau in Düsseldorf-Lauhausen (created in 1926) took over in 1927 another small company, Meteor-Flugzeugbau in Hannover-Vahrenfeld. Each had built one single light sport aircraft before: the Phönix LF 4 low wing monoplane and the Meteor L 1 biplane. In 1927 the united company presented the Phönix L 2 Meteor biplane, evolved from the L 1. Single copies of a number of variants appeared (L 2a, 2b, 2c, 2d, 2e, 2g).

Very small series building the L 2c (6 copies) and L 2g (2 copies) took place in Austria in the specially established Österreichische Phoenix-Flugzeugwerft GmbH in Wöllersdorf (established in 1929).

There was no series building in Germany.

In 1932 the Phönix sport aircraft history was over, both in Germany and in Austria.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Tuizentfloot very much,

and for C.II,it was mentioned as I heard in the book; German Aircraft of the First World War (2nd ed.). London: Putnam

 

[hesham]

Hi,

Mr. Josip Mickl was an engineering,and designed and built some airplanes in Austria-Hungary
at first,then in Yugoslavia;

Mikl No 1 - experimental plane with engine 40 hp Daimler, 1 piece, 1912.,
Mikl Type A - trainer aircraft with engine Gnome 80 hp or 80 hp Rone, 3 pcs, 1913. god.,
Lohner Type E - seaplane fighter joint project ethers, Mikl and Paulal engine with 100 hp Gnome, 1 piece, 1913,
Mikl Type S - training plane with an engine 80 hp Gnome, 7 units, 1914-1915. god.,
Mikl Type G - long-range scout / bomber with three engines Hiro 3 x 200/225/240 hp, 10 pieces, from 1915 to 1916. However,
Mikl type A100 - combat aircraft and engine Hiro 200/230 hp, 17 pcs, 1918.,
Mikl type A2.100 - combat aircraft and engine Hiro 240 hp, 1 piece, 1918.,
Mikl Type R - long-range scout with a Daimler engine of 345 HP, 2 pcs, 1918.

http://www.vazduhoplovnetradicijesrbije.rs/index.php/biografije/69-josip-mikl

 

[Tuizentfloot]

Some additions and comments mostly based on
• Keimel, Österreichs Luftfahrzeuge (1981)
• Schpita, Die k.u.k. Seeflieger (1983)
• Keimel, Luftfahrzeugbau in Österreich (2003)

1. Not mentionned in the Serbian list: the first Mickl (co)designed plane, the 1907 Mickl-Bohrer-Sablatnig Gleiter. A sailplane built in collaboration with Hans Bohrer and Josef Sablatnig.

2. "Mikl No 1 - experimental plane with engine 40 hp Daimler, 1 piece, 1912". This was the k.u.k. Seeflugzeug Nr. 1, first flown as a landplane and then as a seaplane. It was built at the k.u.k. Marinearsenal Pola.

3. "Mikl Type A - trainer aircraft with engine Gnome 80 hp or 80 hp Rone, 3 pcs, 1913". The Mickl Typ A was a 1913/14 Donnet-Lévêque style flying boat developed by Josef Mickl and built at the k.u.k. Marinearsenal Pola as k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge A22 to A24 (later the registrations A22 tot A24 went to Hansa-Brandenburg CC).

4. "Lohner Type E - seaplane fighter joint project ethers, Mikl and Paulal engine with 100 hp Gnome, 1 piece, 1913". Also known as the Lohner 1½ Decker flying boat (k.u.k. Seeflugzeug E16). Also Donnet-Lévêque style flying boat designed by Josef Mickl, Karl Paulal and Igo Etrich, and built by Lohner.

5. "Mikl Type S - training flying boat with an engine 80 hp Gnome, 7 units, 1914-1915". The Albatros Typ S trainer designed by Mickl at the k.u.k. Marinearsenal Pola and built by Ö-u. Albatros. In his 1981 book Keimel gives the registrations k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge sS-1 to sS-7, and in his 2003 book only sS2 tot sS4, plus sS6. Schupita gives still other information.

The early naval registrations are complicated since different planes had successively the same registrations.

6. "Mikl Type G - long-range scout / bomber with three engines Hiro 3 x 200/225/240 hp, 10 pieces, from 1915 to 1916". Three engined flying boat of which nine were built and two left unfinished. Three variants:
- k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge G1 tot G3, built by Ö-u. Albatros.
- k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge G4 to G8, built by Öffag.
- k.u.k. Seeflugzeug G9, built by Öffag.

7. "Mikl type A100 - combat aircraft and engine Hiro 200/230 hp, 17 pcs, 1918." and "Mikl type A2.100 - combat aircraft and engine Hiro 240 hp, 1 piece, 1918".

In fact there were three types of the same basic design (called A2), based on the Brandenburg W.18, developed by Mickl and built by Phönix (and sometimes called Phönix Typ II):
- Mickl Typ A: basic type of which two were built as k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge A105 and A106
- Mickl Typ A2.II: improved type of which 12 were ordered and built (k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge A119 to A130). Called A.100 by Schupita. Mention had been made of variants Av and AvII but I can find no more details.
- Mickl Typ As: a lighter variant of the basic design of which 25 were ordered as k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge A131 to A155, but only A131 and A132 were deliverd (and A133 almost finished). Called A2.100 by Schupita (or erleichterter A 100-Typ).

8. "Mikl Type R - long-range scout with a Daimler engine of 345 HP, 2 pcs, 1918". The k.u.k. Seeflugzeug Typ R (and later Typ F) three seater flying boat:
- k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge R1 and R2 (later R301 and R302, and still later F1 and F2) built by Öffag
- k.u.k. Seeflugzeuge R3 to R14 (later F3 to F14) ordered form Lohner, but not built.

9. Not mentioned in the list: k.u.k. Seeflugzeug Nr. 7, a 1913 flying boat with one 85 hp Hiero and built at the k.u.k. Marinearsenal Pola.

10. Neither mentioned in the list: k.u.k. Seeflugzeug Typ H (Mickl Typ H), a single 1916 flying boat with one 200 hp Hiero and built especially for Gottfried Banfield. Built by Öffag.

 

[hesham]

Brilliant work my dear Tuizentfloot,many thanks.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

what there any drawing or Info survivor to Mises R.I ?,I think it was a giant bomber,right ?.

 

[Tuizentfloot]

Mises R.I is the unofficial and wrong designation sometimes given to the Aviatik (Mises) prototypes 30.07, 30.17 and 30.18, that were rather twin-engined G-types.

In any case they were the biggest landplanes built in the Austro-Hungarian Empire during WWI, and at Aspern a special shed was built for them. They had two 300 hp Austro-Daimler engines.

Designed by prof. Richard von Miese in 1915 and built by Ö-u. Aviatik, the 30.07 made his first flight in July 1916 (and crashed in the same month). Two more were built with small modifications, of which the 30.17 crashed in January 1918. Test with the 30.18 continued until the end of WWI.

Drawings and photographs are readily available on the internet.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Tuizentfloot.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

does anyone know this company,Eissler Wien ?,I found it had a flying boat design called
Type-XXII,was that any more series to it ?.

https://usmilitaryaircraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/undes-cu-f.pdf

 

[Maveric]

The text contains a version of the Hansa-Brandenburg W.13, which was built in Austria-Hungary as Type K.
The Lohner Type X was build as kuk Seeflugzeug Type K.
And there is a Type K from the Weichmann company.

The Lohner company comes from Vienna, perhaps Eissler is a subcontractor.

 

[Apophenia]

I don't think there ever was an "Eissler Wien". The company name was 'Warchalowski, Eissler'. Osterreichischen Industriewerke Warchalowski, Eissler & Co. A.G. was founded at Wien-Ottakring in 1913 by August Warchalowski (President and Director General) with ing. Georg Eissler. Their chief designer was the famous racer Otto Hieronimus - hence the name of Warchalowski, Eissler's best-known product - the Hiero (not 'Hiro') brand of aero-engines.

During WWI, Warchalowski, Eissler & Co. A.G. expanded into munitions and ancillary military equipment (including field kitchens dubbed 'Gulaschkanonen'). I see no evidence to suggest that this expansion included the building of airframes.

So, what is flying boat pictured? Jos suggests this "Eissler Wien XXII" may be a Lohner-built Typ K. It certainly has the outer V-struts of Lohner designs but those designs also had multiple strut bays - this flying boat didn't. Nor can I find evidence to suggest that Lohner ever built K-Flugboote.

Most of the Austro-Hungarian W.13s were built by UFAG in Budapest. AFAIK, those UFAG-built boats all had parallel outer wing struts. A handful of Typ Ks were built by Oeffag and Phoenix. I wonder, did those boats have outer V-struts?

Anyway, the Typ K's powerplant was a 360 hp Austro-Daimler AD12 but production of that troubled engine was halted, leaving many motorless Typ K airframes. So, here is a highly-speculative possibility: At war's end, might the United States' war-booty aircraft have been an Oeffag- or Phoenix- built Typ K experimentally fitted with a Hiero substitute engine? That would explain the Warchalowski, Eissler confusion and, perhaps, those pesky V-struts ...

 

[Aubi]

Same struts are seen at this Hansa-Brandenburg:


The fuselage also looks identical to this one, also HB:

The tail looks very... American (it reminds me tails later used on the Curtiss F-5L), so I'd guess that some work was done to it at the Naval Aircraft Factory.