Arsenal de l'aéronautique: built prototypes and unbuilt projects

[Jemiba]

Arsenal VB.15 ( a version of hte VB.10 powered by two Arsenal 12H engines, french versions of the Jumo 213), this is a post war type.
For the Payen pre-war types and projects I would recommend http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen.htm,
but you'll probably find out, that especially informations about Payen aircraft are hard to find ..

 

[Johnbr]

Do's any one now what plane this.

 

[Arjen]

Arsenal VB 10.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_VB_10

 

[Johnbr]

Thanks

 

[Jos Heyman]

VB.10

Specifications
span: 15.49 m
length: 12.98 m
engines: 2 Hispano Suiza 12Z
max. speed: 700 km/h

Fighter bomber powered by two in-line engines. The first flight was on 7 July 1945 and five examples were built.

 

[Arjen]

Other images found here:
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=1839&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=115
http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/arsenal_vb-10.php - includes 3-view.

According to "Prototypes de l'aviation française 1945-1960" by Jean-Claude Fayer, E-T-A-I 2002, the first prototype was fitted with two 860hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y31 engines, first flight July 1945. The second prototype was fitted with 1150hp Hispano-Suiza 12Z engines, first flight September 1946. Development was abandoned in September 1948.

 

[Johnbr]

Nice looking plane most france planes are ugly.

 

[Stargazer]

Nice looking plane most france planes are ugly.

I'll have to disagree on this. Besides the Caudrons, most PRE-WAR French planes were ugly... But post-war French aviation is full of beautiful stuff.

 

[Johnbr]

Sorry I should have said pre ww2.

 

[Jemiba]

The aircraft on the photo may be the second prototype, as the first one
still didn't feature a real bubble-canopy and wasn't armed.
BTW, a further development, powered by two Arsenal 12H engines (principally
Jumo 213A) was planned, the annular radiator giving it a distinctive "German"
look, to my opinion.

 

[Arjen]

Nice stuff, Jens. What's your source?

 

[Jemiba]

Nice stuff, Jens. What's your source?

Jean Cuny "Les Avions De Combat Français - 1944-1960", J.-C. Fayer " Les Prototypes des Aviation
Francais" and "Les Vols d'Essay", Bill Gunston "Fighter Aircraft Of The World" and there was at least
one short article in the Flying Review magazine. That's what I can remember in the moment, it's
quite old stuff, sorry.
BTW, as the question is answered now, I decided to change the topic.

 

[Arjen]

...decided to change the topic...

Rightly so.

Jean Cuny "Les Avions De Combat Français - 1944-1960"

That's the one absent from my french bookshelf. I'd better start saving for it, then.

 

[toura]

HI
From " le fana de l'aviation
Arsenal VB 10 01

 

[toura]

Arsenal in flying

 

[Maveric]

...from Klassiker der Luftfahrt

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is the Arsenal VB.20,a single seat fighter with contra-rotating propellers,
powered by two tandem engines.


http://forum.aviation-ancienne.fr/search?search_author=Chuck+Yeager&show_results=posts

 

[Stargazer]

Topic name changed to include built and unbuilt types.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


in the Trait d'Union magazine,there is many unknown aircraft and projects to
Arsenal company,such as; ASM.6 may be light aircraft,VG.50 bomber,VG.70
experimental aircraft with propeller (not jet) and VGU.40 a helicopter project,
has anyone the Issue 134 to tell us about them.

 

[toura]

Hi Hesham
From www.hydroretro.net
A VG 50 Transport and a VG 50 Figther ???,,

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Toura,


but I know the VG.50 re-allocated to a four engined aircraft,and may be a bomber to
compete SNCASO SO.71.


Who know the other Arsenal projects?,specially the VGU.40 helicopter.

 

[Jemiba]

but I know the VG.50 re-allocated to a four engined aircraft,and may be a bomber to
compete SNCASO SO.71.

Principally that's what Toura said and what's in article, he gave the link, too: "... destiné
au projet de quadrimoteur transatlantique Arsenal VG 50 ..." (intended to be used for the
4-engined transatlantic aircraft VG 50). A "bomber" actually isn't mentioned by Hartmann,
nor by Cuny, although after liberation, it could have been turned into such a project, like
the SO 71. But I haven't found such a project by Arsenal for post-war times still yet.
Seems, this company was fully occupied with development of fighters, especially jet fighters
after the war.

 

[toura]

Hi Jens

From J. Cuny's book

 

[Jemiba]

Oh, yes, thanks for putting me right ! So it seems, both had the same history, developed
during occupation and turned into a bomber after liberation. Were they developed with the
intention to be used as bombers from the start and "avion courier" was just camouflage ?
Or were those designs used as basis, because nothing better was available ?

 

[toura]

hi Jens

During this period
Yes a lot of "camouflage" was used in French industry
to avoid that the techical staff have no work and also
to avoid they was obliged to go to work in Germany !!

 

[hesham]

Hi,


the Arsenal designed the VB.16,which was developed from VB.15.

 

[Apophenia]

So that VG.50 quadrimoteur transatlantique evolved directly into (or was revealed as) the 1944-45 heavy bomber designed to Specification B6/R6?

in the Trait d'Union magazine,there is many unknown aircraft and projects to
Arsenal company,such as; ASM.6 may be light aircraft,VG.50 bomber,VG.70
experimental aircraft with propeller (not jet) and VGU.40 a helicopter project,
has anyone the Issue 134 to tell us about them.

No reason to assume that the number from the original VG.40 fighter wasn't reassigned for this VGU.40 helicopter project (presumably 'U' was for a third member of the design team).

The VG.70 propeller-driven experimental aircraft may be a reference to the later, Arsenal 12H-powered VG.60. Alternatively, prop versions of the VG.70 may have been proposed
before it received its Jumo 004B jet engine? Either way, the designation is odd for an experimental airframe (compared with the Ars O.101 nomenclature).

The designation ASM.6 seems very odd for a light aircraft. Wouldn't an 'avion ASM' (Anti-Sous-Marine) project be more probable?

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,


the VGU.40 was called; Air-Lame-Guyot,and it was displayed at Paris Salon in
1936 as a helicopter project,and may be the number 40,was for the Guyot.


For the VG.70 (not jet) project,I agree with you my dear,and for ASM.6,may
be it was a sailplane project ?,I don't know.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham. So this is the helicopter project was concept of aerodynamicist, Sébastienne Guyot. The timing is about right. She started design work in 1933 and the Arsenal de l'aéronautique was scheduled to produce this design in 1938.

However, the name usually given is the "Loth-Guyot" (originally scheduled for production by the Arsenal de l'aéronautique in 1938). Rather than a name, I think "air lame" is actually a description of this machine's slotted blades (meant to control laminar flow).

The question is: where did the designation VGU-40 come from? And what does it signify? Even if we assume that the 'VG' is for Vernisse and Guyot (rather than the usual Galtier), what the heck does the 'U' stand for?

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,


the Trait d'Union said it was in 1936,and for the suffix "U",I think it was for
Guyot intead off G,that's because the suffix "G" used for Galtier.

 

[Apophenia]

Ah, okay. Thanks Hesham. So for those designations, 'VG' is for Vernisse and Galtier while 'VGU' is for Vernisse and GUyot.

 

[hesham]

Ah, okay. Thanks Hesham. So for those designations, 'VG' is for Vernisse and Galtier while 'VGU' is for Vernisse and GUyot.

You are right my dear Apophenia,


I check from that,and a good sense.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is an Arsenal two Projects,the first was a well known twin engined racer aircraft,and the
second was a tailless pusher aircraft.

Le Fana 246

 

[hesham]

From Lotnictwo 2/2003,

here is the VG.40 drawing,compared with VG.39 and VG.50.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks for those, Hesham. The drawing caption kind of suggest that the VG 39bis and VG 40 were the same thing. Not quite.

The VG 39bis project combined the VG 39's HS.12Y-89ter/HS-12Z powerplant with the VG 36 fuselage. The Occupation-era VG 40 project was closely related but seems to have had a larger wing area (and an alternative 1,030 hp Merlin III powerplant).

VG 50 was a cover designation for an Occupation-era VG 40 development powered by a 1,200hp Allison V-1710-39.

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Apophenia,

but VG.40 was based on VG.39bis and its airframe,of course the were not the same.

 

[hesham]

Hi Hesham
From www.hydroretro.net
A VG 50 Transport and a VG 50 Figther ???,,

The Arsenal VG.50 allocated to a nine different Projects,the transatlantic one was a 35 ton
weight and its Model was built.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

for VB.10,it had a Project for blind fuselage configuration,that means the pilot couldn't see well
in straight point.

 

[blackkite]

ＨｍHm.....Ｓuper contribution as usual.

 

[hesham]

ＨｍHm.....Ｓuper contribution as usual.

Thank you my dear Blackkite;

and there was a Project version of VB.10,intended to recce duty,had a camera in front of the fuselage.