ARPAD 600 grenade launcher

[tround]

I thought that this weapon was a fake but it existed .

 

[Stranger_NN]

http://raigap.livejournal.com/95319.html - in russian.

 

[xiaofan]

This has reminded me something similar.

 

[tround]

Do you have other infomations?
It looks like the SUW (samouraï urban warfare ) made by Lacroix in 2000 .
There is video on youtube or one can see that it has too much recoil .

The SUW ; caliber : 76.2mm , weight : 7 kg , weight of projectile : 1kg , payload : 650 gr . muzzle velocity : 100ms .
accuracy : can hit a window at 100m , a vehicle at 200m , area target at 300m .

 

[Rickshaw]

Why the fascination with utilising recoil absorbing systems when recoilless or rocket systems merely side-steps the whole problem in a much lighter package which means the warhead can be heavier for a comparable weight?

 

[tround]

Clearly a RPG is better than the SUW .
I think that the best application for this system is antimaterial rifle .
One can make an antimaterial rifle more powerful and more lighter than the xm109 .

 

[Creative]

This has reminded me something similar.

What is that xiaofan? Recoilless Rifle? Shoulder fired mortar? What caliber?

 

[Avimimus]

Why the fascination with utilising recoil absorbing systems when recoilless or rocket systems merely side-steps the whole problem in a much lighter package which means the warhead can be heavier for a comparable weight?

Reduced propellant for the same muzzle velocity? It would mean lighter/compact rounds (so more rounds could be carried). You get a smaller warhead (for the system weight) and a broken shoulder, but you get more warheads for the system weight.

It might also reduce launch signature... which will become increasingly important over the next decade (i.e. by 2020 - not 1980...)

 

[tround]

The recoilless guns always had this problem of signature .

The problem , it's to find the good compromise between the warhead weight the muzzle velocity and the weight of the weapon .

 

[xiaofan]

This has reminded me something similar.

What is that xiaofan? Recoilless Rifle? Shoulder fired mortar? What caliber?

It is 60mm or around 60mm and I do not know what is for or what kind of system, I think it is similar to SUW.

 

[Herr Drahüss]

This has reminded me something similar.

What is that xiaofan? Recoilless Rifle? Shoulder fired mortar? What caliber?

It is 60mm or around 60mm and I do not know what is for or what kind of system, I think it is similar to SUW.

This was a Howa prototype of 66 mm launcher to replace the Carl Gustav. This photo has been taken to the Tsuchiura museum.
If you speak japanese or love Google Translate, there is a link :

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dragoner.hatenadiary.org

 

[monochromelody]

This has reminded me something similar.

What is that xiaofan? Recoilless Rifle? Shoulder fired mortar? What caliber?

It is 60mm or around 60mm and I do not know what is for or what kind of system, I think it is similar to SUW.

This was a Howa prototype of 66 mm launcher to replace the Carl Gustav. This photo has been taken to the Tsuchiura museum.
If you speak japanese or love Google Translate, there is a link :

å¹»ã®ã¦ãå¼¾é - ä¸ç·ããªã¿ãªã¼ã¹ã¯ã¨ã¢

第ä¸æ¬¡å¤§æ¦ä¸ã®1916å¹´9æ15æ¥ãã½ã³ã ã«ããã¦ã¤ã®ãªã¹è»ãæ¦è»ãå²ä¸åãã¦å®æ¦æå¥ãã¾ãããã»ã¨ãã©ã®æ©åµç«å¨ãå¹ããªãæ©åµã®æµã®åºç¾ã«ãããå¾æ¥ã®æ©åµç«å¨ã®ç³»çµ±ããæåããããå¥ã®é²åã辿ããã¨ã«ãªãç«å¨ãå³ã¡å¯¾æ¦è»ç«å¨ãçã¾ãããã¨ã«ãªãã¾ãã æ¦è»ã®åºç¾ã«å¯¾ãã¦ãå½åã®ãã¤ãè»ã¯é è·é¢å°æã»æ...

dragoner.hatenadiary.org

No, actually this 66mm grenade gun is earlier than JGSDF adopted Carl Gustav in 1980s.
幻のてき弾銃 means "Dreamed grenade gun" in Japanese, with some sense of dark humor. The development of this weapon was a totally mess.

At first they decided to make a shoulder firing launcher that fires 66mm HEAT grenade similar to M72 LAW, but without back blast so that it could fire from confined space.
Then the TRDI(技術研究本部) developed a mock up for ergonomics study, which really annoyed those decision makers. Because TRDI is only supposed to do theoritical research, and they thought that mock up would be a working prototype, which should be produced by factory team. So they called a stop to TRDI's initial work phase and jumped to prototype making phase.
These intervention caused obvious delay and severe ergonomics problem.
After 10 years of development they finally created such thing that really could fire from enclosured cover, with fair HEAT penetration, but kicks so hard that would damage itself and the man firing it, and could hardly hit a tank.
Finally when JGSDF send a investigation group to the Europe in 1970s, they desided to drop this daydream project and just import a batch of Carl Gustav and license built in Japan.

 

[Grey Havoc]

So the TRDI was still in general blocked from doing prototype work as late as the early 1970s? Interesting.

 

[GruntFox]

Why the fascination with utilising recoil absorbing systems when recoilless or rocket systems merely side-steps the whole problem in a much lighter package which means the warhead can be heavier for a comparable weight?

Largely because, without Rarefaction Wave Gun (RAVEN) tech, the Ke potential of a recoilless round is significantly reduced. Right now HEAT and HEDP warheads are easily countered by all ERA and composite armor and while EFPs are being produced, they're generally for ATGMs right now. So, in effect, unless you want stupidly huge (for infantry) calibers, RRs are just screwed. Add to the fact that ADS is proliferating and oh boy is it going to be 'fun' to be an infantryman (guerillas are now getting 'locked out' of combat effectiveness thanks to a combination of ever-increasing sensor density and the increasing 'floor' for combat in general).

To give you an idea, RRs tend to lazily fling rounds at least 200m/s, a RAVEN gun can achieve velocities somewhere around three-quarters of a conventional cannon.

 

[drejr]

Why the fascination with utilising recoil absorbing systems when recoilless or rocket systems merely side-steps the whole problem in a much lighter package which means the warhead can be heavier for a comparable weight?

Largely because, without Rarefaction Wave Gun (RAVEN) tech, the Ke potential of a recoilless round is significantly reduced.

To give you an idea, RRs tend to lazily fling rounds at least 200m/s, a RAVEN gun can achieve velocities somewhere around three-quarters of a conventional cannon.

The problem with this hypothesis is that the Samouraï above the question asked 8 years ago had a muzzle velocity of 100 meters per second (twice as lazy!) and so much recoil nobody ever figured out to fire it prone.

ARPAD had a higher velocity but much lighter projectiles and a foot of recoil length - it's doubtful anyone's going to develop a man-portable KE antitank cannon with a recoil buffer.

A RAVEN gun isn't recoilless unless it uses early venting, eliminating its advantages.

 

[jsport]

Why the fascination with utilising recoil absorbing systems when recoilless or rocket systems merely side-steps the whole problem in a much lighter package which means the warhead can be heavier for a comparable weight?

Largely because, without Rarefaction Wave Gun (RAVEN) tech, the Ke potential of a recoilless round is significantly reduced.

To give you an idea, RRs tend to lazily fling rounds at least 200m/s, a RAVEN gun can achieve velocities somewhere around three-quarters of a conventional cannon.

The problem with this hypothesis is that the Samouraï above the question asked 8 years ago had a muzzle velocity of 100 meters per second (twice as lazy!) and so much recoil nobody ever figured out to fire it prone.

ARPAD had a higher velocity but much lighter projectiles and a foot of recoil length - it's doubtful anyone's going to develop a man-portable KE antitank cannon with a recoil buffer.

A RAVEN gun isn't recoilless unless it uses early venting, eliminating its advantages.

RAVEN is not recoiless however the Wave timing maintains nearly 80% ++of the muzzle velocity.. an entirely novel propulsive approach.
the venting barely detracts if the timing is correct.

 

[drejr]

Yeah, and the similar muzzle velocity comes with the same peak chamber pressure, which is another reason you aren't going to see high-velocity man-portable antitank RAVEN guns.

But they don't have anything to do with ARPAD or Samourai, which were basically variants of the old Davis guns using pistons instead of expelled countermass.

 

[jsport]

RAVEN is proposed as a manportable. If dont you understand the tech. please do not comment.

 

[drejr]

The pressure curve of a RAVEN gun is identical to a conventional gun of the same ballistics until the breech is opened. This is just one of the formidable obstacles to man-portable KE weapons using the principle.

This may be difficult for someone yet to understand the concept of "complete sentences," let alone the difference between hardware and crude clipart in a PowerPoint.

 

[GruntFox]

The pressure curve of a RAVEN gun is identical to a conventional gun of the same ballistics until the breech is opened. This is just one of the formidable obstacles to man-portable KE weapons using the principle.

This may be difficult for someone yet to understand the concept of "complete sentences," let alone the difference between hardware and crude clipart in a PowerPoint.

That isn't really the case, as Ares Inc. made a RAVEN cannon and the momentum is ~39% of a conventional cannon. That is a significant reduction of recoil. Please note that the weapon being compared to the RAVEN gun has a muzzle velocity of 1.1km/s with the RAVEN gun having just a twitch less velocity (like two meters per second less).

 

[drejr]

What does recoil momentum have to do with peak chamber pressure? The weapon compared to the RAVEN gun was...the RAVEN gun with a closed breech. Since the muzzle velocity was the same peak chamber pressure was the same.

If you want to stick something with 39% of the recoil of an antitank cannon on your shoulder be my guest, but these are two different issues, neither of which have much to do with ARPAD or Samourai.

 

[jsport]

What does recoil momentum have to do with peak chamber pressure? The weapon compared to the RAVEN gun was...the RAVEN gun with a closed breech. Since the muzzle velocity was the same peak chamber pressure was the same.

If you want to stick something with 39% of the recoil of an antitank cannon on your shoulder be my guest, but these are two different issues, neither of which have much to do with ARPAD or Samourai.

You have not read the research or you would not be talking about chamber pressure curves, therefore you still have no standing.
A hint for those lacking an attention span. It is called a
Rarefaction Wave Gun (RAVEN) for a reason.

 

[drejr]

What is the basis of the projectile propulsion of a gun venting "after peak pressure but prior to shot exit?" Do you think it's propelled by a rarefaction wave??? That's the complete opposite of how it actually works.

The chamber of a RAVEN gun has to withstand the same pressure as an equivalent conventional gun.

.

 

[GruntFox]

What is the basis of the projectile propulsion of a gun venting "after peak pressure but prior to shot exit?" Do you think it's propelled by a rarefaction wave??? That's the complete opposite of how it actually works.

The chamber of a RAVEN gun has to withstand the same pressure as an equivalent conventional gun.

View attachment 657843.

Wow, how to ignore how it works. From the looks of things, you're not going to be persuaded by anything we say.

 

[drejr]

Of course not. It's utter nonsense.

The rarefaction wave is the sudden drop in pressure caused by opening the breech. The entire point of a RAVEN gun, and why it loses minimal velocity, is that breech opening is delayed so the rarefaction wave never contacts the projectile.

Peak pressure, which is what a gun must be built to withstand, is the same. So your hypothetical RAVEN gun's chamber must be as heavily built as an equivalent high-velocity antitank gun.

You have not read the research or you would not be talking about chamber pressure curves,

Not talking about chamber pressure curves - of a gun. LOL

 

[jsport]

No one ever said the wave hit the projectile, but wave is fooled. The rd loses very little velocity if breech opening is timed precisely.

Shaped Charge warheads penetrate armor. Who needs HV guns in the case of manportables...

So what the gun pressure is the same. The recoil systems are the majority of gun system problems/complexities and why SPHs and tanks weight so much.

 

[drejr]

Shaped Charge warheads penetrate armor. Who needs HV guns in the case of manportables...

I have no idea who needs them. You and GruntFox were the ones talking about man-portable KE RAVEN guns.

A low-velocity RAVEN gun would be kind of dumb, but I guess it sounds cool.

 

[jsport]

I was never pushing a manportable RAVEN but it would be great RPG alternative which portions of the US Army have been contemplating for decades. The Carl Gustav has a bit to be desired but is integral to Rngr Bns. There are US domestic RPG manufacturers for that very reason. RAVEN would be better. A US Army patent called "free puncher" was a long range recoilless manportable and would have been cheap unguided and accurate at nearly 1000m range w/ all it's exotics...a cliche.. game changer.

 

[drejr]

It was recoilless because it was a rocket launcher.

A RAVEN gun built to the same minimum specifications (1 pound penetrator at 5000 fps) would not only have to withstand similar pressures to a tank gun (not sure the .05" thick fiberglass/aluminum tube of the patent would cut it), it would have a recoil energy of ~22 foot-tons assuming 2 pounds of propellant, a 20 pound launcher and a generous 75% recoil reduction.

 

[jsport]

It was recoilless because it was a rocket launcher.

A RAVEN gun built to the same minimum specifications (1 pound penetrator at 5000 fps) would not only have to withstand similar pressures to a tank gun (not sure the .05" thick fiberglass/aluminum tube of the patent would cut it), it would have a recoil energy of ~22 foot-tons assuming 2 pounds of propellant, a 20 pound launcher and a generous 75% recoil reduction.

Again, I never said FPuncher was a gun. It is a manportable w/ long range. Shape Charges do not require such fps and rckt/gun w/ shape charge even less. The reintroduction of Ramjet rds is proof a gun/rocket combo is back. However, the recent problems w/ the Head shock of even rockets like SMAW, argues for a remote mounts on vehicles which, w/exotic alloy barrels and be about the size of TOW launcher w/ much greater range. It would not have to be such a large RAVEN as this. Even the Ares 30mm would not need be so massive in a remote rkt/gun,