Argus class Fleet Aircraft Carriers

[NOMISYRRUC]

Link to Post 291 of the thread "Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining carrier based air power?"

I'm spinning this off into a separate thread because the existing thread is following many lines of enquiry, which include (but may not be limited too) prolonging the life of the Audacious & Centaur classes, building the CVA.01 class, building some 1952 Large Aircraft Carriers or 1954 Medium Aircraft Carriers, building a better Invincible class and several about carrier aircraft.

This thread exists in the same fictional universe as the several "Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining its aerospace industry" threads (started by me) as the two are closely related.

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This is the text of Post 291 from the thread
"Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining carrier based air power?"​

Argus class Aircraft Carrier HMS Glorious

It became so big that I'm spinning it off Alternative Warships of Nations into its own thread...

www.alternatehistory.com

The POD is still January 1946.

An even more austere Austerity Era forced the cancellation of the entire Audacious class, the entire Centaur class and the entire Tiger class. However, as a sop the Admiralty was allowed to complete Hercules and Leviathan by 1948.

Plans to fully modernise the Illustrious class were abandoned by 1948 in favour of 6 new carriers that would be ready in time for the "Year of Maximum Danger". However, the Illustrious & Colossus/Majestic classes would be refitted to operate 30,000lb aircraft. This looked affordable to the Admiralty of 1948 because the economy was on the mend. For example the personnel cuts of the late 1940s were avoided so there was no need to lay up the King George V class battleships 1949-50 and downgrade Vanguard to a training ship in 1949.

Four 35,000 ton carriers were built in the HMS Glorious thread and five or six 1952 Carriers were laid down from 1950 in this timeline and completed 1955-61. They would take the names of the first 5 or 6 RN aircraft carriers. That is Argus, Courageous, Eagle, Furious, Glorious and the sixth if built would be called Hermes.

All would be built with a pair of BS.4 steam catapults with a stroke of at least 199ft (and preferably 250ft) and a fully angled flight deck. It might not be possible to complete the first ships with the Type 984 radar, CDS & DPT and if that was the case they were fitted with the Type 984M radar, ADA & DPT during their first major refits. The reason why they were all completed with fully angled flight decks was that that someone had the idea four years earlier.

They also had a modern torpedo defence system, AC electrical systems (which Ark Royal, Centaur & Eagle didn't) and modern accommodation for the crew. The latter may have helped the RN recruit and retain more men over the coming years.

Due to the theory that "steel is cheap and air is free" they don't cost 50% more to build than the 35,000ton design and some of the money used to build the fifth ship came from what was spent on Albion, Ark Royal, Bulwark, Centaur and Eagle 1950-55 in the "Real World".

The 5 or 6 ships built form a homogenous class with hulls and machinery that should have had at least 20 years of life in them & even more if they had SLEP refits like the contemporary American super carriers. Therefore, a replacement class wasn't required until 1975 at the earliest. Furthermore, unlike the 5 strike carriers that the RN had in 1960 in the "Real World" these ships were capable of being made to operate the Buccaneer and Phantom at a price the British taxpayer could afford.

However, the other defence cuts of 1965-70 still happen and so the number of ships is reduced from 5 or 6 to 3 between 1965 and 1975 with one of the 3 surviving ships always in refit or reserve. Personnel constraints also mean that they couldn't be given full strength air groups either. The two active ships only had 1970s Ark Royal size air groups in peace which would be enlarged in war by breaking up the training squadrons.

There weren't any Centaur class ships to convert into commando carriers in this "Version of History" so Hercules, Leviathan and possibly Magnificent were converted in their place.

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The above was refined in Post 299​

There were now 6 ships built in two groups of 3 ships.

• Long-lead items the first trio of ships (Argus, ALT-Eagle & ALT-Hermes) were ordered in 1948.
  • The ships themselves were ordered in 1949 and laid down in 1950.
  • Argus & ALT-Eagle (which took the place of the Real-Ark Royal & Eagle) were completed in 1955 to Standard B.
  • ALT-Hermes (which took the place of the rebuilt Victorious) was completed to Standard A in 1958.
• The second trio (Courageous, Furious & Glorious) were ordered in 1951 as part of the Rearmament Programme.
  • However, they weren't laid down until 1954 and were completed 1959-61 to Standard A.
  • The completion of Furious in 1960 allowed Argus to be brought to Standard A in a refit that began in 1960
  • The completion of Glorious in 1961 allowed ALT-Eagle to be brought to Standard A in a refit that began in 1961.

By the rule-of-three, 2 ships were fully operational, 2 were working up after long refits and 2 were having long refits. The two fully operational ships were normally "East of Suez" and the two ships working up were "West of Suez".

The quartet of ships in commission operate air groups of about 40 aircraft which consisted of 12 fighters, 14 strike aircraft, 5 Gannets for AEW & COD and 9 helicopters for ASW, SAR & Vetrep. These were considerably less than the capacity of the ships but it was more than the 3 or 4 ships that were operational IOTL carried. Furthermore, in an emergency they could be reinforced by transferring aircraft from between carriers or by breaking up the training squadrons. Both were something that was done in IOTL and would also be done ITTL.

 

[zen]

Ok let's refine.
I'd say it's actually decided in discussion in '47 and design start '48.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Ok let's refine.
I'd say it's actually decided in discussion in '47 and design start '48.

Although not written explicitly in the Opening Post design of the Argus class began the day the Audacious and Centaur classes were cancelled. At present that's January 1946 because that's when the other Eagle was cancelled. Though I might put that forward to October 1945.

 

[Pirate Pete]

I know this is from ‘Real World’, (from Project Cancelled by Wood)but it gives the time-line of Royal Naval jet aircraft development. Using your amended time-line and decision making processes, certainly some (if not most) of these programmes could be advanced…

 

[zen]

Refinement.
E-in-C would request test and trial of new Capital Ship Plant. Arguably concurrent with New Cruiser Plant YEAD-1 at Pamatrada.

Argument made to build at least one new 1,000ft by 137ft by 33ft drydock, likely on North Shore above existing Devonport.

Assuming such 1948 CV design could be unlimited to 1,000ft, though overseas facilities might limit to 950ft compromise Length.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This is the text of Post 312 from the thread
"Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining carrier based air power?"

I wrote those from memory. Since then I've checked my copies of Brown and Friedman.

Dimensions of British and French Aircraft Carriers

The lengths of PA54 and PA58 are their lengths between perpendiculars. However, I have been informed that France measures it differently and the between perpendiculars length is the same as the waterline length. I haven't included the 1954 Medium Fleet Aircraft Carrier because I don't know it's dimensions. However, it was intended to have boilers producing 135,000shp driving 3 shafts so my guess is that it would have had 3 sets of the Y.300 machinery projected for the 1952 Ship.

The 1952 Aircraft Carrier was smaller that I expected.

• It's length was nearly half way between the Audacious class and CVA.01.
• It was only 2ft 3in wider than the Audacious class and 7ft narrower than CVA.01.
• Most surprising of all was that it was 45ft shorted than PA58 and only 3ft beamier.

Friedman wrote that 3 BS.4 steam catapults and 3 lifts were wanted but the DNC said the choice was 3 catapults or 3 lifts not both. So they went for 2 catapults one of which was given a stroke of 200ft. However, all the drawings that I've seen of the ship show it with 2 lifts not 3. My version of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier would have had a pair of 199ft BS.4s arranged like the BS.5s on Eagle in 1964 and Ark Royal in 1970.

Friedman wrote that the Staff Requirement at December 1952 was:

• 30,000 at 154 knots
• 40,000 at 136 knots
• 60,000 at 113 knots

Brown and Friedman wrote:

• 60,000lb maximum take-off weight.
• 45,000lb maximum landing weight.
• Friedman also wrote that the deck (but, not the arrester gear) could have taken 60,000lb.

The machinery that was estimated to weigh 3,800 tons which wasn't significantly heavier than Eagle's 3,660 tons despite producing 180,000shp instead of 152,00shp and there was sufficient boiler power for 240,000shp for catapult operation without loosing speed. However, he also wrote that the E-in-C was later asked to develop figures for an alternative plant with matched boiler and turbine power, so some loss of speed while catapulting would have to be accepted and that the estimated weight of the machinery increased to 4,125 tons in December 1952.

Friedman wrote that the requirement was for two (one if it could obtain all-round coverage) Type 984 radars feeding a 96-track CDS in a two-deck AIO with 10 intercept positions (as in Ark Royal) with DPT. However, he also wrote that this was reduced to a 48-track CDS and 8 intercept positions in February 1953. Both authors say that the original fixed armament of sixteen 3in/70 guns in 8 twin mountings was reduced to twelve 3in/70 guns in six twin mountings.

Brown wrote that the projected air group was 53 aircraft comprising 33 fighters, 12 strike aircraft & 8 ASW aircraft. Friedman (in Table 16-3 on Page 333) wrote that it was 82 in December 1953 comprising:

• 24 interceptors (Scimitars or NA.38).
• 24 all-weather fighters (F3D Skyrays or F10F Jaguars).
• 12 strike aircraft (folding Canberras or A3D Skywarriors).
• 12 ASW aircraft (Gannets or S2F Trackers).
• 8 AEW aircraft (Skyraiders).
• 2 helicopters.

However, it's likely that the ships would have been fitted for but not with an air group of that size had they been built and would normally have carried air groups that were the same size as Eagle after 1964 and Ark Royal after 1971.

Friedman wrote that as the ship was not much larger than Eagle and would probably have had much the same compliment (2,550 officers & ratings) hence the same weight of equipment. That's not much more than the 1954 Medium Carrier's crew which according to Brown was 2,400. That helps because it makes it easier to keep 4 out of 6 ships in commission in the 1960s and 2 out of 3 ships in commission in the 1970s.

Both say that the hangars were to have had a clearance of 17½ft but only Brown says that the beam of the ship was increased to 116ft by the time it was abandoned in favour of the Medium Fleet Aircraft Carrier.

Friedman didn't give any estimated costs. Brown says the estimated cost of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier was £26 million in 1953 and that the estimated cost of the 1954 Medium Carrier was £18 million. However, as these are British estimates be prepared for cost overruns and inflation. When I wrote the HMS Glorious thread I though that £72 million for 4 ships of the 1954 type was more cost effective than £78 million for 3 ships of the 1952 type. However, that was before I became a convert of the theory that steel is cheap and air is free and that the difference between the 1954 and 1952 ships would have been less than estimated.

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However, in Post 320 of that thread @JFC Fuller wrote.

Unfortunately, Brown's section on the medium carrier also confuses matters. In actuality, the ship estimated at £18 million is from 1953 and was almost certainly a two shaft design, probably a modernised Hermes in concept, not a three shaft medium carrier of the variety that made its way in to long-term planning in late 1954.

By coincidence the Real Hermes was completed in 1959 at a cost of £18 million. Also two Medium Aircraft Carrier designs were studied. That is the large one of 35,000 tons with three-shaft machinery that I though the cost of £18 million referred to and a smaller one of 28,000 tons with two-shaft machinery. Perhaps the modernised Hermes @JFC Fuller refers to and the "small" Medium Aircraft Carrier were one and the same ship.

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Edit 08.01.24

There were several typos in my transcript of Table 16-3 in Friedman's "British Carrier Aviation" which have been corrected.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Argument made to build at least one new 1,000ft by 137ft by 33ft drydock, likely on North Shore above existing Devonport.

Assuming such 1948 CV design could be unlimited to 1,000ft, though overseas facilities might limit to 950ft compromise Length.

The Argus class is the Real-1952 Aircraft Carrier, started in 1946 instead of 1952 and according to my sources that ship was 815ft long at the waterline.

Therefore, unless you're future proofing the royal dockyards for the next two generations of aircraft carriers (ALT-CVA.01 & Real Queen Elisabeth class) a dry dock that large won't be needed.

That being written the immediate post-war period is the best time to do it as it can be done as part of the rebuilding of Plymouth which as far as I know was bombed heavily in World War II. If more labour is required perhaps the UK can keep some Axis prisoners-of-war for longer and say they're paying some of the war reparations that were due.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Post 397 from the Original Thread​

The Real World version of the 1950s Aircraft Carrier plans.

• The 1951 Rearmament Programme was for 6 fleet carriers (Ark Royal, Eagle, Illustrious, Implacable, Indefatigable & Victorious) and 6 light fleet carriers (Albion, Bulwark, Centaur, Hermes, Vengeance & Warrior) plus 4 light fleet carriers (Glory, Ocean, Theseus & Triumph) serving in second-line roles.
• The Radical Defence Review of 1954 cut that to 3 fleet carriers (Ark Royal, Eagle & Victorious) and 3 light fleet carriers (Albion, Bulwark & Centaur) plus 4 Colossus class light fleet carriers serving in second line roles. Hermes would have replaced Bulwark on completion and my guess is that Bulwark would have in turn replaced one of the Colossus class ships in the second-line.
• The Sandys Defence Review of 1957 cut that to 5 strike carriers (Ark Royal, Centaur, Eagle, Hermes & Victorious), 2 commando carriers (Albion & Bulwark) and Triumph converted to a heavy repair ship.
  • According to Friedman, the Admiralty wanted 6 strike carriers to ensure that 4 were available at all times instead of 3.
  • He gave the example of 1959-60 when Ark Royal & Eagle were refitting and only 3 modern carriers (Centaur, Hermes & Victorious) were available.
  • He also wrote that the conversion of Albion into a commando carrier was delayed to maintain the required number of strike carriers.

My version of the 1950s Aircraft Carrier plans.

• The 1951 Rearmament Programme would have still been for 6 fleet carries and 6 light fleet carriers plus 4 light fleet carriers in second-line roles, but the 6 fleet carriers would have been 1952 Aircraft Carriers and the 10 light fleet carriers serving in first and second-line roles were Colossus & Majestic class ships.
• The Radical Review of 1954 would have been for 6 fleet carriers (all 1952 Aircraft Carriers) with some light fleet carriers serving in second-line roles.
• The Sandys Defence Review of 1957 would retain the 6 strike carriers (to ensure the availability of 4 ships at all times), 2 or 3 commando carriers (converted Colossus or Majestic class) and Triumph would still become a heavy repair ship.

 

[Pirate Pete]

Nomisyrruc, I think, following the Admiralties previous experience of design restrictions due to existing dry-docks, I can see new docks being constructed, at least at Portsmouth and Devonport.
Whether Devonport gets the full Northern Extension proposed in the 1940's, or, at least for the time being, just the large dock to the South of the main yard is (obviously) up to you the Author.
Portsmouth I think should get (at least a version of) the proposed CVA-01 dock. (If I recall correctly, thanks to JFC Fuller for originally posting these images).

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Post 472 of the Original Thread
Musings on the cost of the Argus class
Part One​

My train of thought is a follows

• The estimated cost of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier (built in my "Version of History" as the Argus class) was £26 million in 1953.
• The estimated cost of the 1954 Medium Aircraft Carrier was £18 million in 1954.
• The "Great Rebuild"of Victorious cost £20 million.
  • As far as I'm concerned she was the contents of the 1954 Medium Aircraft Carries crammed into a smaller hull.
  • Below the flight deck everything outside the machinery spaces was new.
  • The hull above the flight deck was brand new and so was the superstructure and so was everything inside them.
  • All that was left of Victorious when she entered the dockyard in 1950 was the hull plating below the flight deck and her turbines.
• Therefore, the estimated cost of £18 million for the 1954 Medium Aircraft Carrier was accurate.
• Therefore, the estimated cost of £26 million for the 1952 Aircraft Carrier was accurate.

Therefore, I put the following to the forum

1. The 4 Argus class ships completed 1958-61 in my "Version of History" would have cost about £26 million each at 1958 prices.
2. The pair of ships laid down in 1950 and completed in 1955 would have cost less than £26 million each at 1958 prices, because they didn't have the Type 984 radar, CDS & DPT.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Post 472 of the Original Thread updated
Musings on the cost of the Argus class
Part Two

The estimated cost of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier was £26 million in 1953
I want to build six of them.
Six times £26 million equals £156 million

In the "Real World" £168 million was spent as follows:

​

I've decided to cancel the entire Daring class at the end of World War II too and spend the money on the aircraft carriers. Some of the older destroyers will be kept in service for longer to compensate.

In Part One I postulated that the 1953 estimate of what I'm calling the Argus class was accurate and that the 4 ships completed 1958-61 would have cost £26 million each at 1958 prices. As I wrote in the other post the rebuilt Victorious was the contents of the 1954 Medium Aircraft Carrier crammed into a smaller hull and that a 1954 ship built in her place would have cost less. What I didn't explain was that the 1954 ship can be regarded as the contents of the 1952 ship in a larger hull with more powerful machinery and I think that accounts for most of the extra cost of the 1952 ship.

In this "Version of History".

• The £87.402 million spent on Albion, Ark Royal, Bulwark, Centaur, Real-Eagle & the Daring class would be used to build Argus & ALT-Eagle.
  • The pair of new ships would have cost less than £26 million at 1958 prices because they didn't have the Type 984 radar, CDS & DPT so the total cost would have been less than £52 million.
  • However, I'm going to be prudent and say that they did cost £52 million.
  • Which leaves £35.402 million that can be spent on something else.
• The £20 million spent on Victorious 1950-58 and £6 million of the £35.402 million not required to built Argus & ALT-Eagles is used to build ALT-Hermes which was laid down in 1950 and completed in 1958.
• The £42.428 million spent on the Tiger class cruisers would be used to build Courageous, Glorious & Furious, which were ordered in 1951, laid down in 1954 and completed 1959-61.
  • Using the Bank of England Inflation Calculator.
    • £26.17 million cost of Courageous at 1959 prices.
    • £27.42 million cost of Furious at 1960 prices.
    • £28.36 million cost of Glorious at 1961 prices.
    • Total cost £81.95 million.
  • That leaves £39.352 million to be found.
    • £29.402 million of the £35.042 million not required to build Argus and ALT-Eagle is spent 1951-55 on long-lead items for the Courageous, Furious & Glorious.
    • Real-Hermes cost £18 million and was completed in 1959. The money spent on her would have been spent on Courageous.
    • The 1959-64 refit of Real-Eagle cost £31 million. The portion spent 1959-61 can be spent on completing Furious and Glorious.
    • Except that Argus begins her Standard A refit in 1960 (when Furious is completed) & ALT-Eagle begins its Standard A refit in 1961 (when Glorious was completed) and the money spent on Real-Eagle 1959-64 is needed to pay for those refits.

However, we have to deduct what was spent on the ships 1941-45.

• In Post 246 @EwenS wrote that £1.95 million had been spent on the other Eagle by the end of 1945.
  • The construction of Ark Royal & Eagle was more advanced than their sister at the end of 1945.
  • However, in spite of that I'm going to say that £2 million had been spent on each those ships by the end of 1945.
• According to Brown the cost of Centaur was originally £2.8 million that due to the long delays and inflation increased the actual cost of Centaur to £10.53 million.
  • According to @EwenS in Post 246 £1.95 million had been spent on the other Eagle and was 26% complete when she was cancelled. He also wrote that she was laid down 7 months after Ark Royal which works out as December 1943. (Although Chesneau wrote that it was in April 1944.)
  • Albion was laid down in March 1944, Centaur was laid down in May 1944, Hermes was laid down in June 1944 and Bulwark was laid down in May 1945.
  • Therefore, they were likely to have been less advanced than the other Eagle at the end of 1945.
  • However, assuming that they were an average of 26% complete too and because one Centaur is effectively half an Audacious in terms of displacement, machinery and armament my guess is that an average of £1 million had been spent per ship for a total of £4 million.
• The Vote 8 cost of a Fiji class cruiser was £2.23 million so I'm deducting £6.69 million from the cost of the Tiger class.
  • That may be an overestimate of the money spent on them to January 1946 in the "Real World".
  • If it is an overestimate that will compensate for me underestimating the sums spent on the Audacious and Centaur classes to January 1946.
• Therefore, my estimate is that £15 million had been spent on the Audacious, Centaur and Tiger classes to the end of 1945, which reduces the sum available to £133 million.

There's also the money spent on the "Real World" ships between 1945 and 1950 when the Argus, ALT-Eagle and ALT-Hermes were laid down. I've no idea of how to estimate that sum.

We also have to deduct the money spent on completing Hercules & Leviathan in 1948. The mean Vote 8 cost of the Colossus (and I assume Majestic & Sydney) was £2.5 million and as the ships were at an advanced stage of construction the money required would have been trivial. However, if it was a trivial sum of money why weren't they completed?

Finally, the long-lead items for the first 3 Argus class ships were ordered in 1948, the hulls were ordered in 1949 and they were actually laid down in 1950. So it may be correct to say that the start date was 1948 rather than 1950. In any case the money spent 1948-50 on the long-lead items and other preparatory work before they were laid down comes from what was spent on the real ships 1948-50.

 

[zen]

Perhaps the modernised Hermes @JFC Fuller refers to and the "small" Medium Aircraft Carrier were one and the same ship.

Keep in mind Victorious was referred to as 'Fast Armoured Hermes Type', so considering their deck layout is fairly similar....

Note.....
Third deletion is speculative additional ideas to help. No point, read RN Carrier Condunrums (spelling?)

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Note.....
Third deletion is speculative additional ideas to help. No point, read RN Carrier Condunrums (spelling?)

After reading that six times.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGccaoic2A

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Keep in mind Victorious was referred to as 'Fast Armoured Hermes Type', so considering their deck layout is fairly similar....

My current musings are:

• Eagle in 1964 = The contents of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier crammed into a smaller hull.
• Victorious in 1958 = The contents of the 35,000 ton 1954 Medium Aircraft Carrier crammed into a smaller hull.
• Hermes in 1959 = The contents of the 28,000 ton 1954 Medium Aircraft Carries crammed into a smaller hull.

Therefore, using the theory that "steel is cheap and air is free" new ships with the same characteristics would have cost the same or possibly less. Especially, the larger 1954 Carrier v the rebuilt Victorious because so little of the original ship was left.

 

[zen]

After reading that six times.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGccaoic2A

28,000tons 100,000shp to 30+ knots....
Arguably a hull similar Ark Royal (1930s build)
35,000tons 135,000shp to 30+ knots
Arguably a hull similar to Hood or Akagi.

Benefit of hull 94 to 96ft beam in the water.....fits through gates of 100ft width and drydocks of 100ft width.

Benefits of 104ft beam in the water.....fits through gated and into drydocks of 110ft width......

Locks at Portsmouth for example
Battleship drydocks at Rosyth.

Force choices due to beam restriction.
Small island = gallery deck = inboard lifts.
Deck edge lifts = large island and no gallery deck.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

28,000tons 100,000shp to 30+ knots....
Arguably a hull similar Ark Royal (1930s build)
35,000tons 135,000shp to 30+ knots
Arguably a hull similar to Hood or Akagi.

Benefit of hull 94 to 96ft beam in the water.....fits through gates of 100ft width and drydocks of 100ft width.

Benefits of 104ft beam in the water.....fits through gated and into drydocks of 110ft width......

Locks at Portsmouth for example
Battleship drydocks at Rosyth.

Force choices due to beam restriction.
Small island = gallery deck = inboard lifts.
Deck edge lifts = large island and no gallery deck.

For what they're worth, more of my current musings.

• 1952 Aircraft Carrier vs Audacious.
  • 38,000shp per shaft x 4 shafts = 152,000shp - Audacious.
  • 45,000shp per shaft x 4 shafts = 180,000shp - 1952 CV
• 1954 Aircraft Carrier (35,000 tons) vs Victorious.
  • 37,000shp per shaft x 3 shafts = 111,000shp - Victorious.
  • 45,000shp per shaft x 3 shafts = 135,000ship - Large 1954 CV
• 1954 Aircraft Carrier (28,000 tons) vs Hermes.
  • 38,000shp per shaft x 2 shafts = 76,000shp - Hermes.
  • 50,000shp per shaft x 2 shafts = 100,000shp - Small 1954 CV.

As I understand it the 1952 CV and both 1954 CVs used Y.300 machinery in multiples of 4, 3 and 2 shafts (in that order) and rated at 45-50,000shp per shaft.

 

[uk 75]

Good idea to devote a thread to this very detailed alt reality class of aircraft carriers.
It would help an old codger like me to follow if you would list the RN carriers available postwar with their in service and disposal dates.
My understanding so far is:

Illustrious plus?

Colossus plus?

Majestic plus ?

Hercules 1948

Leviathan 1948

Argus 1955 refit 1960

Courageous 1959

Eagle 1955 refit 1961

Furious 1960

Glorious 1961

Hermes 1958

Hope you can produce a table showing the lives of each ship.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Good idea to devote a thread to this very detailed alt reality class of aircraft carriers.
It would help an old codger like me to follow if you would list the RN carriers available postwar with their in service and disposal dates.
My understanding so far is:

Illustrious plus?​

Colossus plus?​

Majestic plus ?​

Hercules 1948​

Leviathan 1948​

Argus 1955 refit 1960​

Courageous 1959​

Eagle 1955 refit 1961​

Furious 1960​

Glorious 1961​

Hermes 1958​

Hope you can produce a table showing the lives of each ship.

It's on my to do list. However, there are umpteen threads here and on alternatehistory.com that I want to contribute to, so don't hold your breath.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Brown wrote that the projected air group was 53 aircraft comprising 33 fighters, 12 strike aircraft & 8 ASW aircraft. Friedman (in Table 16-3 on Page 333) wrote that it was 82 in December 1953 comprising:​

• 24 interceptors (Scimitars).
• 24 all-weather fighters (F3D Skyrays or F10F Jaguars).
• 12 strike aircraft (folding Canberras or A3D Skywarriors).
• 8 ASW aircraft (Gannets or S2F Trackers).
• 4 AEW aircraft (Skywarriors)
• 2 helicopters

There was an AEW Skywarrior proposal?!?

The Argus class is the Real-1952 Aircraft Carrier, started in 1946 instead of 1952 and according to my sources that ship was 815ft long at the waterline.

Therefore, unless you're future proofing the royal dockyards for the next two generations of aircraft carriers (ALT-CVA.01 & Real Queen Elisabeth class) a dry dock that large won't be needed.

That being written the immediate post-war period is the best time to do it as it can be done as part of the rebuilding of Plymouth which as far as I know was bombed heavily in World War II. If more labour is required perhaps the UK can keep some Axis prisoners-of-war for longer and say they're paying some of the war reparations that were due.

100% this. If you're rebuilding a shipyard anyways, always add more drydock length!

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

There was an AEW Skywarrior proposal?!?

No, it's another embarrassing typo by me. It should read Skyraider.

 

[Scott Kenny]

No, it's another embarrassing typo by me. It should read Skyraider.

We won't discuss just how many times I have to go back and edit posts due to typos...

 

[Yellow Palace]

Brown wrote that the projected air group was 53 aircraft comprising 33 fighters, 12 strike aircraft & 8 ASW aircraft. Friedman (in Table 16-3 on Page 333) wrote that it was 82 in December 1953 comprising:

• 24 interceptors (Scimitars).
• 24 all-weather fighters (F3D Skyrays or F10F Jaguars).
• 12 strike aircraft (folding Canberras or A3D Skywarriors).
• 8 ASW aircraft (Gannets or S2F Trackers).
• 4 AEW aircraft (Skywarriors)
• 2 helicopters

I'm going to be the stick-in-the-mud who points out that that adds up to 72... not that typos in Friedman are a novel concept.

It's also an air wing that bears some comparison to those deployed on the modernised ESSEX class carriers.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I'm going to be the stick-in-the-mud who points out that that adds up to 72 . . .

Actually, it adds to 74. You didn't include the 2 helicopters.

. . . not that typos in Friedman are a novel concept.

You're telling me!

Although on this occasion the typos are mine because it should have read.

• 24 interceptors (Scimitars or NA.38).
• 24 all-weather fighters (F3D Skyrays or F10F Jaguars).
• 12 strike aircraft (folding Canberras or A3D Skywarriors).
• 12 ASW aircraft (Gannets or S2F Trackers)
• 8 AEW aircraft (Skyraiders)
• 2 helicopters

That's 12 ASW aircraft instead of 8 which increases the total to 78 and 8 AEW (Skyraiders) instead of 4 AEW (Skywarriors) which increases the total to 82. Therefore, on this occasion Freidman was correct.

It's also an air wing that bears some comparison to those deployed on the modernised ESSEX class carriers.

That isn't surprising to me because the ship's hull dimensions are similar to those of an Essex. An SCB.27C Essex had a length of 820ft and a beam of 103ft (Source: Conway's 1947-1995). While the 1952 Aircraft Carrier had a waterline length of 815ft and a beam of 115ft.

 

[uk 75]

Those numbers look on the high side. Ark Royal could only host one squadron of Phantoms and one of Bucs plus a handful of Seakings and Gannets. No more than 40ac.
Are you assuming they spend all their time on deck US style?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Those numbers look on the high side. Ark Royal could only host one squadron of Phantoms and one of Bucs plus a handful of Sea Kings and Gannets. No more than 40ac.

They were capable of carrying more than 40 aircraft and on occasion did.

The air group for Eagle in 1963 as projected in 1956 was 50 aircraft.

• 12 SR.177
• 12 Buccaneer
• 10 Sea Vixen
• 14 Gannets (8 ASW & 6 AEW)
• 2 helicopters for SAR

While I'm at it the air group for the much maligned rebuilt Victorious in 1963 as projected in 1956 was 40 aircraft.

• 8 SR.177
• 8 Buccaneer
• 10 Sea Vixen
• 8 ASW helicopters
• 4 AEW Gannets
• 2 SAR helicopters

Are you assuming they spend all their time on deck US style?

I'm assuming nothing. I'm merely reporting what Friedman wrote in his book.

 

[uk 75]

Fair enough. But 50 is a bit different from 74. I am not sure I would want to be on that flight deck.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Fair enough. But 50 is a bit different from 74. I am not sure I would want to be on that flight deck.

It's 82 aircraft, not 74.

In the other thread I've shown that Ark Royal had as many as 69 aircraft embarked in the late 1950s. Although they were 1950s aircraft that were smaller than 1960s aircraft (especially the Sea Hawk v the Sea Vixen & Buccaneer) and the aircraft projected for the 1952 Aircraft Carrier might be too.

Another example is Victorious, which had she completed her great rebuild on schedule, would have carried 54 fixed-wing aircraft & 2 SAR helicopters in 1954 but in reality carried at most 38 aircraft (12 Scimitar/Buccaneer, 12 Sea Venom/Sea Vixen, 8 ASW Gannets/ASW helicopters, 4 AEW Skyraiders/Gannets & 2 SAR helicopters).

Furthermore, health & safety and crew comfort seems to be ignored in wartime. As I understand it all sides crammed as many aircraft as possible in to their aircraft carriers in World War II. If I remember correctly Hermes had 37 aircraft aboard at the end of the Falklands War.

In any case the Argus class won't be carrying that many aircraft from the 1960s to the 1980s. They'll only carry about 40 aircraft consisting of 12 Spectres, 14 Buccaneers, 8 ASW helicopters, 4 AEW Gannets and 2 SAR helicopters. However, they would have been able to carry more by embarking the aircraft from other ships and breaking up the training squadrons. Both were done in exercises and in the Falklands War.

 

[uk 75]

The leap in size from Seahawks and Venoms to Sea Vixens and Buccaneers is pretty big. It is why Bulwark, Albion and Centaur (not carried out) were all converted to Commando ships.

 

[djcos]

This is the text of Post 312 from the thread
"Could the UK have done a better job of maintaining carrier based air power?"

I wrote those from memory. Since then I've checked my copies of Brown and Friedman.

Dimensions of British and French Aircraft Carriers

The lengths of PA54 and PA58 are their lengths between perpendiculars. However, I have been informed that France measures it differently and the between perpendiculars length is the same as the waterline length. I haven't included the 1954 Medium Fleet Aircraft Carrier because I don't know it's dimensions. However, it was intended to have boilers producing 135,000shp driving 3 shafts so my guess is that it would have had 3 sets of the Y.300 machinery projected for the 1952 Ship.

The 1952 Aircraft Carrier was smaller that I expected.

• It's length was nearly half way between the Audacious class and CVA.01.
• It was only 2ft 3in wider than the Audacious class and 7ft narrower than CVA.01.
• Most surprising of all was that it was 45ft shorted than PA58 and only 3ft beamier.

Friedman wrote that 3 BS.4 steam catapults and 3 lifts were wanted but the DNC said the choice was 3 catapults or 3 lifts not both. So they went for 2 catapults one of which was given a stroke of 200ft. However, all the drawings that I've seen of the ship show it with 2 lifts not 3. My version of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier would have had a pair of 199ft BS.4s arranged like the BS.5s on Eagle in 1964 and Ark Royal in 1970.

Friedman wrote that the Staff Requirement at December 1952 was:

• 30,000 at 154 knots
• 40,000 at 136 knots
• 60,000 at 113 knots

Brown and Friedman wrote:

• 60,000lb maximum take-off weight.
• 45,000lb maximum landing weight.
• Friedman also wrote that the deck (but, not the arrester gear) could have taken 60,000lb.

The machinery that was estimated to weigh 3,800 tons which wasn't significantly heavier than Eagle's 3,660 tons despite producing 180,000shp instead of 152,00shp and there was sufficient boiler power for 240,000shp for catapult operation without loosing speed. However, he also wrote that the E-in-C was later asked to develop figures for an alternative plant with matched boiler and turbine power, so some loss of speed while catapulting would have to be accepted and that the estimated weight of the machinery increased to 4,125 tons in December 1952.

Friedman wrote that the requirement was for two (one if it could obtain all-round coverage) Type 984 radars feeding a 96-track CDS in a two-deck AIO with 10 intercept positions (as in Ark Royal) with DPT. However, he also wrote that this was reduced to a 48-track CDS and 8 intercept positions in February 1953. Both authors say that the original fixed armament of sixteen 3in/70 guns in 8 twin mountings was reduced to twelve 3in/70 guns in six twin mountings.

Brown wrote that the projected air group was 53 aircraft comprising 33 fighters, 12 strike aircraft & 8 ASW aircraft. Friedman (in Table 16-3 on Page 333) wrote that it was 82 in December 1953 comprising:

• 24 interceptors (Scimitars or NA.38).
• 24 all-weather fighters (F3D Skyrays or F10F Jaguars).
• 12 strike aircraft (folding Canberras or A3D Skywarriors).
• 12 ASW aircraft (Gannets or S2F Trackers).
• 8 AEW aircraft (Skyraiders).
• 2 helicopters.

However, it's likely that the ships would have been fitted for but not with an air group of that size had they been built and would normally have carried air groups that were the same size as Eagle after 1964 and Ark Royal after 1971.

Friedman wrote that as the ship was not much larger than Eagle and would probably have had much the same compliment (2,550 officers & ratings) hence the same weight of equipment. That's not much more than the 1954 Medium Carrier's crew which according to Brown was 2,400. That helps because it makes it easier to keep 4 out of 6 ships in commission in the 1960s and 2 out of 3 ships in commission in the 1970s.

Both say that the hangars were to have had a clearance of 17½ft but only Brown says that the beam of the ship was increased to 116ft by the time it was abandoned in favour of the Medium Fleet Aircraft Carrier.

Friedman didn't give any estimated costs. Brown says the estimated cost of the 1952 Aircraft Carrier was £26 million in 1953 and that the estimated cost of the 1954 Medium Carrier was £18 million. However, as these are British estimates be prepared for cost overruns and inflation. When I wrote the HMS Glorious thread I though that £72 million for 4 ships of the 1954 type was more cost effective than £78 million for 3 ships of the 1952 type. However, that was before I became a convert of the theory that steel is cheap and air is free and that the difference between the 1954 and 1952 ships would have been less than estimated.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****​

However, in Post 320 of that thread @JFC Fuller wrote.

By coincidence the Real Hermes was completed in 1959 at a cost of £18 million. Also two Medium Aircraft Carrier designs were studied. That is the large one of 35,000 tons with three-shaft machinery that I though the cost of £18 million referred to and a smaller one of 28,000 tons with two-shaft machinery. Perhaps the modernised Hermes @JFC Fuller refers to and the "small" Medium Aircraft Carrier were one and the same ship.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****​

Edit 08.01.23

There were several typos in my transcript of Table 16-3 in Friedman's "British Carrier Aviation" which have been corrected.

Dear NOMIS: Am looking for sources that might list British engineers casualties data related to a perhaps 1948 PAMTRADA related project that claimed the lives of from 75-100 engineers. The site was described as a nuclear blast proof torpedo targeting station. It may have been more than that. It was locked down in the on position for 28 years without servicing with an active measures electrical perimeter and live defensive torpedos until shut down in 1976. They perished within a mockup air craft carrier flag and navigation station with five decks of accomodations and limited food or water. Clearing their personal effects and researching their identities took from 1976-1978. The engineer associates were likely early contacts of Prince Philip and his earliest set of PAMATRADA engineers or among British and Hong Kong leaders of turbine and torpedo technology of the day. Both Group Howden and Hong Kong HAECO were involved in the prototype blast proof accommodations. The Swires (Sir Anthony, Adrian and Jock) were all on site from 1975-1979 clearing the research project. Perhaps some of those lost were among earliest members of Vickers Armstrongs Royal Academy of Engineers. Does someone have an undisclosed list from Royal Admiralty with their names from 1948 and updated 1977 or 1978? Did any British Admiralty Engineers ever talk about this sad accident?

 

[TsrJoe]

Parsons And Marine Engineering Turbine Research And Development Association ...

Parsons and Marine Engineering Turbine Research and Development Association - Graces Guide

www.gracesguide.co.uk

HAECO. ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAECO

 

[djcos]

"But long before the QE2 came along their orders had reduced to a trickle and many of the best men had left."
(The Times, Feb 11, 1969)

Were the best men in fact entombed in 1948?

HAECO (Prior to 1950) Pacific Air Maintenance and Supply Company (PAMAS) and Jardine Air Maintenance Company (JAMCo).

(1947) (PAMAS )"Recognising that air transport was the key to the future, Jock Swire used Taikoo Dockyard's engineering skills to develop an aircraft repair and maintenance facility, Pacific Air Maintenance and Supply Company ("PAMAS"), at Hong Kong's Kai Tak Airfield."

https://www.swire.com/ourjourney/timeline/1946-1969-new-directions/1947/index.html

(1947) (JAMCo) "The Jardine Aircraft Maintenance Co. Ltd was established by Jardine, Matheson & Co. Ltd at Hong Kong in 1947 to service airlines operating through the colony. The operations of the company merged with those of the Pacific Air Maintenance & Supply Co. Ltd owned by Butterfield & Swire in 1950 to form the Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Co. Ltd. The Jardine Aircraft Maintenance Co. Ltd was placed into voluntary liquidation in 1954."

Jardine Aircraft Maintenance Co Ltd | ArchiveSearch

archivesearch.lib.cam.ac.uk

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Dear NOMIS: Am looking for sources that might list British engineers casualties data related to a perhaps 1948 PAMTRADA related project that claimed the lives of from 75-100 engineers. The site was described as a nuclear blast proof torpedo targeting station. It may have been more than that. It was locked down in the on position for 28 years without servicing with an active measures electrical perimeter and live defensive torpedos until shut down in 1976. They perished within a mockup air craft carrier flag and navigation station with five decks of accomodations and limited food or water. Clearing their personal effects and researching their identities took from 1976-1978. The engineer associates were likely early contacts of Prince Philip and his earliest set of PAMATRADA engineers or among British and Hong Kong leaders of turbine and torpedo technology of the day. Both Group Howden and Hong Kong HAECO were involved in the prototype blast proof accommodations. The Swires (Sir Anthony, Adrian and Jock) were all on site from 1975-1979 clearing the research project. Perhaps some of those lost were among earliest members of Vickers Armstrongs Royal Academy of Engineers. Does someone have an undisclosed list from Royal Admiralty with their names from 1948 and updated 1977 or 1978? Did any British Admiralty Engineers ever talk about this sad accident?

I can't help with that because I'd not heard of it and have no idea where you could find the information that you want.

 

[djcos]

Thank you. I would think some Junior Officers at Admiralty Whitehall circa 1975-1979 might recall. There can't be many of them around anymore. Thank you all the same.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Thank you. I would think some Junior Officers at Admiralty Whitehall circa 1975-1979 might recall. There can't be many of them around anymore. Thank you all the same.

If they were JOs then, they'd only be about 65-70.

 

[djcos]

The ones I knew then would be around 75 now, associated with Special Operations, Admiralty Experimental Diving Unit (Disbanded 1977) the marketing of the JIM ATM Dive Suit in Canada prior to licensing to Oceaneering (1975-1977) as well as 845 Naval Air Squadron/HMS Hermes during their periods in Canadian waters from 1975-1979. Head of The Operation: Lord Louie Mountbatten.

At the time I had two numbers to call at Admiralty Whitehall in case of emergencies. I called them once late October, 1975.

 

[djcos]

If this photo helps, (on the left) recall the name of the private security of Danish Royal Family 1975-1979 here on the Official Visit to The Virgin Islands 1976. His name was Marten and may have been a Pied Noir from Algeria. He was working on site onboard Royal Yacht Dannebrog.

The Royal Navy Operation was combined British, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish Royal Families and their Naval Special Forces including Max von Baden Colonel and Diver of the Bundesmarine. Hard to forget Marten. He was a huge fan of Bruce Lee.
Might he have been in some of Bruce Lee's films? I wonder.

Fascinating life of Margrave of Baden, King Charles III’s German cousin who attended the Queen’s coronation, as he dies aged 89

Maximilian was the son of the late Margrave of Baden and Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, the second of Prince Philip’s three sisters

www.tatler.com

World War Two Veterans, Canadians working on the Operation included: Victor Greek and Dr. Stephen Borden Bird.

http://www.inmemoriam.ca/view-announcement-486530-dr-stephen-bird.html https://sweenysfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/2282/Victor-Greek/obituary.html

1975-1979 These managed Greenfield Regional Airport for Kittyhawk's Hawker Siddeley HS 780 on its frequent visits to Liverpool/South Shore Regional Airport or South Shore Regional Airport (ICAO: CYAU) Queen's County, Nova Scotia, Canada.