Anglo French Naval Wargame

[uk 75]

Not a real war of course (despite some stupid politicians and journalists) but a Field of the Cloth of Gold Naval task group challenge.

1966. Eagle task group Vs Foch task group.

1976. Ark Royal task group Vs Foch task group.

1986. Invincible task group. Vs Foch task group.

2006. Illustrious task group Vs De Gaulle task group.

2026. Prince of Wales task group Vs De Gaulle task group.

Task Groups include surface ships but not subs.

Would be interesting?

 

[Archibald]

Phantoms vs Crusaders ? Should be interesting. Also Crusaders vs SHARs. And Rafales vs SHARs. F-35 vs Rafale.

 

[uk 75]

Although the carriers and their aircraft will be key, the escort ships also would test different philosophies.

1966 At least one County and one Suffren and for France a Kersaint with Tartar. Some RN frigates and Eagle with early Seacat.

1976 A T82 or T42 joins the Brits. Exocets on some ships..

 

[H_K]

Let’s see… in terms of offensive weapons:

1966: Buccaneers with 1,000lb bombs vs Etendards with AS-30

1976: Buccaneers with Martel vs. Etendards with AS-30

1986: Short ranged Sea Harrier with Sea Eagle vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2006: Short ranged Sea Harriers/Harriers with no stand-off weapons vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2026: F-35Bs still with no stand-off weapons and no buddy refueling vs. Rafales with Exocet

 

[zen]

1966: Buccaneers with 1,000lb bombs vs Etendards with AS-30

Bulpups too as well as Gloworm rockets if I reccal.
Potentially heavy rockets too.

I think in the 70's there was limited AIM-9G. I vaguely reccal someone talking about turning the tables on the Yanks during some rather legendary Red Flag exercises.

 

[F.L.]

I found these images on a USB stick, but unfortunately I can't remember the source.
Can anyone tell me more about them & when they were taken ?

 

[Archibald]

Feel so weird to see a SHAR among French types. I note that the grey livery is almost exactly similar on S.E and SHAR. It is a bit troubling, as if the SHAR had blended seamlessly among french aircraft. Welcome to the family !

I would hazard a date in the 1980's, considering the Harrier nose and Sidewinders, and the Crusader colors. SHAR FA.1 rather than FA.2, and not-upgraded-Crusader from the 1990's (the last 18 that hanged on until Rafale came at least).

 

[F.L.]

Royal Navy Sea Harrier FRS.1 du 801 Sqn et Sea King à bord du Foch (R99)
Je ne suis pas sûr que ce soit la même occasion.

 

[datafuser]

I found these images on a USB stick, but unfortunately I can't remember the source.
Can anyone tell me more about them & when they were taken ?
View attachment 712101View attachment 712102View attachment 712103

Perhaps the Exercise Jolly Roger in 1990?

 

[EwenS]

Royal Navy Sea Harrier FRS.1 of 801 Sqn & Sea King onboard Foch (R99) (1980)
I'm not sure it's the same occasion.
View attachment 712148

Well it can't be 1980.

The Sea Harrier FRS.1 do carry the winged sword of 801 squadron on the tail. But 801 only reformed on the Sea Harrier in Jan 1981 (previously disbanded 1970). Also they are in overall grey with toned down blue/red roundels. That didn't happen until the Falklands War in 1982. Prior to the Falklands they were painted grey uppers & white undersurfaces and red/white/blue roundels. The checkered rudder seems to have been a post-Falklands addition as well, but one that was not always present.

801 got the Sea Harrier F/A.2 in Oct 1994.

 

[H_K]

Perhaps the Exercise Jolly Roger in 1990?

No. The Super Etendards are still in their original blue camouflage (was changed to 2 tone low viz grey in the late 80s).

So it isn’t 1980 or 1990. But it definitely is Foch as we can see the « F » mark on the flight deck.

I found another reference to a Sea Harrier of 801 Squadron from HMS Illustrious cross-decking on Foch on 7 June 1983. This was during exercise « Ocean Safari » in the Atlantic, with HMS Hermes and USS John F Kennedy also participating (4 carriers!)… maybe that’s the one?

 

[H_K]

P.S. If this was 7 June 1983 then this was just a day after a much more memorable cross decking exercise by a Sea Harrier… the Alraigo incident!

That time a Royal Navy Sea Harrier did an emergency landing on a Spanish Cargo ship: the Alraigo Incident - The Aviation Geek Club

On Jun. 7, 1983 Royal Navy Sea Harrier ZA176 performed an emergency landing aboard Cargo Ship Alraigo.

theaviationgeekclub.com

Soapy's Flight

On May 6th, 1983; Sub Lieutenant Ian

sierrahotel.net

 

[F.L.]

View attachment 712101

I can't work out which sqn this Shar belongs to. His insignia on the tail is a Trident, but two Squadrons have worn this insignia : the 800 & 801 NAS. But these two Sqn had a stylised trident, whereas this one is quite simple.

Squadron History | Mysite

The Sea Harrier Association was formed in October 2008, and it is currently one of the youngest Fleet Air Arm Association. The Association aims to maintain and encourage the growth of the comradeship of the Sea Harrier Community which originated in the service.

www.seaharrier.org.uk

 

[F.L.]

Would be interesting ?

Yes !!!

 

[EwenS]

I can't work out which sqn this Shar belongs to. His insignia on the tail is a Trident, but two Squadrons have worn this insignia : the 800 & 801 NAS. But these two Sqn had a stylised trident, whereas this one is quite simple.

Squadron History | Mysite

The Sea Harrier Association was formed in October 2008, and it is currently one of the youngest Fleet Air Arm Association. The Association aims to maintain and encourage the growth of the comradeship of the Sea Harrier Community which originated in the service.

www.seaharrier.org.uk

800 is a trident with crossed swords







801 is a trident with wings as depicted below. The 801 squadron badge changed considerably over time while it operated Sea Harrier

The earliest worn in 1981






1988 while on Ark Royal



F/A.2 era

 

[orlovsky]

Nice puzzle.
To confirm the time frame:
It seems Foch still has all the 100mm, so it's pre the 1987/88 crotale fit.
SuE nr 45 was delivered in 1981.

 

[F.L.]

It seems that the Sea Harrier FRS.1 on the photos is the XZ499, N-002. It later became the Sea Harrier FA.2 "003".
He served with the 801 NAS from November 1981 to September 1988. In service with 801 Sqn, he wore N° 000 & 002.

Aerial Visuals - Airframe Dossier - Hawker Siddeley-BAE Sea Harrier FA.2, s/n XZ499 RN, c/n 912023/P2

This Aerial Visuals page provides airframe history details of a specific airframe from the airframe database.

www.aerialvisuals.ca

Aircraft Photo of XZ499 | British Aerospace Sea Harrier FRS1 | UK - Navy | AirHistory.net #230855

Aircraft photo of XZ499 / N-002 - British Aerospace Sea Harrier FRS1 - UK - Navy (801 Sqn), taken by Jonathan Verschuuren at Amsterdam / Harbour [ Off-Airport ] in Netherlands on 27 January 1985. On board HMS Invincible

www.airhistory.net

Aircraft Photo of XZ499 | British Aerospace Sea Harrier FRS1 | UK - Navy | AirHistory.net #441496

Aircraft photo of XZ499 / 002 - British Aerospace Sea Harrier FRS1 - UK - Navy, taken by Kev Slade at Portsmouth / Naval Base [ Off-Airport ] in England, United Kingdom on 25 August 1984 during the Portsmouth Navy Days 1984. On board R05 HMS 'Invincible'.

www.airhistory.net

UK Serials

 

[Scott Kenny]

Not a real war of course (despite some stupid politicians and journalists) but a Field of the Cloth of Gold Naval task group challenge.

1966. Eagle task group Vs Foch task group.

1976. Ark Royal task group Vs Foch task group.

1986. Invincible task group. Vs Foch task group.

2006. Illustrious task group Vs De Gaulle task group.

2026. Prince of Wales task group Vs De Gaulle task group.

Task Groups include surface ships but not subs.

Would be interesting?

I'd say that the 1986 fight would be the most interesting from an air combat perspective. Crusaders versus SHARs? Yes please!

Let’s see… in terms of offensive weapons:

1966: Buccaneers with 1,000lb bombs vs Etendards with AS-30

1976: Buccaneers with Martel vs. Etendards with AS-30

1986: Short ranged Sea Harrier with Sea Eagle vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2006: Short ranged Sea Harriers/Harriers with no stand-off weapons vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2026: F-35Bs still with no stand-off weapons and no buddy refueling vs. Rafales with Exocet

The full fight would definitely favor the French, though. SHARs have painfully short legs, and we're likely looking at ~8 SHARs total in the Air Group. 10 if we're lucky.

 

[uk 75]

The escort vessels are interesting as well.

In 1966 the County and Suffren have basic Seaslug and Masurca. France has Tarta Guns are the only surface to surface weapons. A Tiger class versus Colbert would be interesting.
In 1976 a T42 or T82 could add Seadart to the RN mix. Exocets on County and Leander (have to check, may be to early) and on Tourvilles.
In 1986 the RN has Seadart and Seawolf in reasonable quantities while France has added Crotale.

 

[Archibald]

Yes. France naval SAMs
- MASURCA is a bit more sophisticated than Sea Slug (@NOMISYRRUC I remember what you explained me), but otherwise as massive. Think of Terrier in size and weight.
- Tartar (4* T-47s destroyers rebuild in the 1960's, then two frigates in the 1980's: the Cassard class).
- Crotale for point defense, including the carriers, but not before the 1980's

Both sides would have Exocets, so it would be like the Falklands except worse.

SHARs Mk.1 vs Crusader would be even weirder than the Falklands aerial warfare.

Dogfight: at low and medium height, Crusader can't be supersonic so SHAR probably wins with AIM-9L. Of course Crusaders could also be smarter that Argentina pilots and go supersonic at high altitude, but depends if the SHAR pilots wants to play that game or not. Not sure about range.

Missile fight: Much like Argentina Mirages, Crusaders have shitty Sidewinders, and crappy R-530s. They got Magic 2 only near the end of their useful lives. Super 530 not possible, -F or -D: forget it.

Bottom line: SHARs FA.1 with AIM-9L would kick Crusader asses as they did to Mirages. Magic 1 was not much better than Sidewinders. Magic 2 was the real deal, just like AIM-9L.

As for SHAR FA.2 - was the first AMRAAM fire-and-forget fighter in Europe: it would take a Mirage 2000-5F with MICA to match it. Or a Rafale, but NOT the F1s in May 2001: they only had Magic 2s !

The first ten Rafale M (M1 to M10) were downrated, F2 standard only started at M11 in 2005. The reason ? Crusaders were already falling appart in 1999, no way they could wait 2001 or 2004, so a batch of downrated Rafales filled the gap. The AdA could wait and got F2 right ahead, in 2004.

Crusaders, Mirage F1s, Mirage 2000C would be fucked up, with SARH -530s.
So would the first ten Rafale F1 (2001 - 2004, before M11) - yes, SHAR FA.2 with AMRAAM could screw it up, long range. Otherwise Rafale would swat it like a fly.

Of course a Rafale F2 would eat the SHAR for breakfast, but not until the mid-2000's at the earliest... and by this point, Great Britain had mostly screwed up the bulk of its Harrier fleet, even the RAF Mk.9.

As for Rafale with F-35B - no idea. F-35 might be more advanced (full stealth versus semi-stealth) but the VSTOL variant pay some price to the lift fan behind the cockpit.

 

[Scott Kenny]

SHARs Mk.1 vs Crusader would be even weirder than the Falklands aerial warfare.

Dogfight: at low and medium height, Crusader can't be supersonic so SHAR probably wins with AIM-9L. Of course Crusaders could also be smarter that Argentina pilots and go supersonic at high altitude, but depends if the SHAR pilots wants to play that game or not. Not sure about range.

Missile fight: Much like Argentina Mirages, Crusaders have shitty Sidewinders, and crappy R-530s. They got Magic 2 only near the end of their useful lives. Super 530 not possible, -F or -D: forget it.

Bottom line: SHARs FA.1 with AIM-9L would kick Crusader asses as they did to Mirages. Magic 1 was not much better than Sidewinders. Magic 2 was the real deal, just like AIM-9L.

I dunno, the Crusader was a wicked dogfighter. Might not be able to go supersonic, but has a lot of excess power to add energy back from tight turns. NASA and the Pax River squadrons kept flying Crusaders long after the USN otherwise retired the type, and would happily jump any fighters flying into their practice areas. Usually winning, though I'm sure it didn't help that test pilots were flying the Crusaders at that point.

They might be old and beat to death, but I would not count them out!

 

[orlovsky]

Let’s see… in terms of offensive weapons:

1966: Buccaneers with 1,000lb bombs vs Etendards with AS-30

1976: Buccaneers with Martel vs. Etendards with AS-30

1986: Short ranged Sea Harrier with Sea Eagle vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2006: Short ranged Sea Harriers/Harriers with no stand-off weapons vs. Super Etendard with Exocet

2026: F-35Bs still with no stand-off weapons and no buddy refueling vs. Rafales with Exocet

Let's not forget AEW.

1966: Gannet vs Alizé

1976: Gannet vs Alizé

1986: Sea King AEW vs Alizé

And then it's "Tis But a Scratch" time:

2006: Sea King AEW vs E-2C Hawkeye

2026: Merlin Crowsnest vs E-2C Hawkeye

 

[Archibald]

Alizé wasn't really AEW until the 1980's and a new Tompson CSF radar (can't remember the name). France exactly has zero AEW capability from 1963 to 1983 at least - or even 2003 when the E-2s came at least.

Then again, African brush wars and crisis didn't needed AEW and, in case of WWIII, Foch and Clem would have gone full NATO and reinforced US carriers, hence benefitting from the Aegis / Tomcat / Hawkeye umbrella (hopefully not fucked up as in Red Storm Rising !)

The Aéronavale was lucky enough not to find itself in a Falklands like slug fest, because, AEW wise, they would have been as stark naked as the RN was. Gasp.

It was not per lack of trying: somewhere on this forum I mentionned that France thought twice about "AEW Trackers" (read, E-1B Tracer) at both ends of the Clemenceaus lives: early 1960's and late 1980's. But nothing happened. There was an AEW RFP in the mid-60's with (Breguets and others) proposals as ugly as the P.139B, which says something about ugliness and monstrosity. But it went nowhere.

 

[orlovsky]

Iguane Radar.

The Alizé's role is a bit of a mystery. In my murky notes I have a quote from a USN piece (I cannot find now) about the Clems that the original Alizé DRAA-2A radar with ship's radar gave „effective early warning” over 100-150 nm. Not sure what this means exactly, but if it means airborn detection range in that ballpark it would be similar to the latest versions of the APS-20.

 

[uk 75]

It would be interesting to know if UK and French warships have exercised in this way. I was fascinated by the possibilities based on other threads here.

 

[H_K]

The Aéronavale was lucky enough not to find itself in a Falklands like slug fest, because, AEW wise, they would have been as stark naked as the RN was.

I would say the upgraded Alizé with Iguane radar was similar in capability to the Sea King AEW with Searchwater radar.

The first modernized Alizés ALMs were delivered in mid-1981 and by Jan 1982 one squadron (6F) had been fully equipped with ~8 Alizés ALMs, with the 2nd full squadron (4F) being equipped by the end of 1982.

 

[Scott Kenny]

It would be interesting to know if UK and French warships have exercised in this way. I was fascinated by the possibilities based on other threads here.

Maybe?

I believe that US carrier groups do something similar when two are passing each other. And my missile sub got tapped to play OPFOR against the Lincoln group in 2002 or 03, which was an absolute blast!

 

[orlovsky]

Seems the guys had fun. A short quote from White's Phoenix squadron:

"By 1971, France was the only other European country in the carrier game. ... the two 30,000-ton carriers of France’s Marine Nationale, Foch and Clemenceau, were the only other carriers in Europe. But they were the only carriers in the world to be fitted with ring mains dispensing red wine to their crews. The French, clearly, did things a little differently, however Rouvillois, a pilot with experience flying the Aéronavale’s Dassault Etendard IVM attack jet, fitted into 809 quickly.
But while 809 made their new pilot feel welcome in Scotland, at the other end of the country Ark Royal’s fighter squadron were preparing to conduct Anglo-French naval relations along more traditional lines. They were going to fight them. The two 892 Squadron Phantoms headed out over the Channel spread out in battle formation.... " [for mock combat with crusaders]

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Yes. France naval SAMs
- MASURCA is a bit more sophisticated than Sea Slug (@NOMISYRRUC I remember what you explained me), but otherwise as massive. Think of Terrier in size and weight.
- Tartar (4* T-47s destroyers rebuild in the 1960's, then two frigates in the 1980's: the Cassard class).
- Crotale for point defence, including the carriers, but not before the 1980's

To use a British expression, you "shot yourself in the foot" by mentioning me because I hadn't read the thread until you mentioned me and the only reason why I did was because you mentioned me.

MASURCA Mk 2 incorporated some Advanced Terrier technology (the MASURCA missile even looked like an Advanced Terrier/Standard ER missile) and the launch system resembled the American GMLS Mk 10. So thinking of MASURCA as Terrier in size and weight is a sensible idea.